Shooting debrief discussion

[wink]

I agree with all there. I can’t imagine anyone wanting to be a police officer these days.

That people still do says a lot. And I am personally grateful.

Dash cams have been around for a long time. Body cams have been rolling out nationwide about as fast as they can get them for years now. Where is the exodus of cops afraid their racist, brutal, illegal actions will come to light? It is commonly said that what makes a cop's job unique and even intimidating, is the body armor and gun they put on every day. But imagine wearing a camera that records you job performance at the worst possible time. When things go to shit and you have to be perfect. The recordings are usually not routinely reviewed. The Captain doesn't see the video of you doing an awesome job every day.

What job requires that kind of scrutiny? Cockpit camers have long been proposed. They would be very useful in mishap investigations, but the pilots have rejected them over and over. I don't hear cops crying over body cams. You know why? It is because the vast majority are good cops who are not afraid of having their actions recorded. Knowing they are recorded who would purposely kill anyone out of policy or for racist reasons? Officers are not afraid of cameras because they know they are not racist and are confident that when they get in the shit, they will perform as expected and trained. Those that don't have likely just made an honest mistake, just like a surgeon. No one is proposing starting to prosecute doctors for mistakes.

 

[Swanee]

No one is proposing starting to prosecute doctors for mistakes

No we just sue the shit out of them, and drive malpractice insurance rates through the roof in the process, which in turn makes us pay even more money for said doctor's services.

 

[Spekkio]

how does LE retirement work. Does your time in service transfer if you switch departments? Does it have to be intrastate?

It varies by location and state.

In NY it's part of the state pension system. Full pay after 25 years based on top 3 years of pay (usually the last 3). Full medical coverage with no monthly premiums. It's also exempt from state income tax, which in NY is substantial. Military service time doesn't count, it only gets points on the entrance exam.

This equates to roughly 2x O-5 retirement pay at 20 for most precincts, and some of the better paying ones approach 3x. Not factoring in BAH and special pays is a real zinger.

I don't know how NY would handle department transfers. I do know that my parents at one point considered moving out of state and none of the prospective locations would award any time at the new district. He also would've lost his stripes.

FDNY pays comparable to LI police and much better than NYPD - reasonable to expect over 6 figures after about 5 years on the job. REALLY hard to get in due to volume of applicants. Most FDs are volunteer only.

 

[FinkUFreaky]

My only question is why did he open the door? Maybe to talk to her? I'm thinking maybe help her? This was a DV situation after all...

But all in all I think it was professional, they kept their calm, and throughout the entire incident it looked like they worked as a team, like they knew what they were doing. No chokeholds, no excessive force, just business ( I think I even heard one of them say, "watch their head" as they were pulling them out of the car). And once they were cuffed, it was hands off. No threat.

And the couple in the car... I think they're trying to capitalize on the current political climate. Which means the cops have to do it better and cleaner than ever.

Only think I noticed is him clearly telling the driver that he couldn't have his ID back until they give him her birthday, and then saying he already gave it back to him and he (the driver) dropped it in the door. I didn't rewatch to see if he ever gave it back or when there was time he could have slipped it back? Is that a common tactic? Other than that I don't know the exact details of what LEOs are allowed to do in those circumstances, but IMO there's two people resposible for them getting arrested that day, and both were in that car. Also agree I can't imagine where the next group of people signing on to be police will come from; I used to think maybe if I did twenty it could be an interesting post career side-gig, or even second career, or something. I would never consider it today.

 

[Spekkio]

That people still do says a lot. And I am personally grateful.

If you're a high school grad with a clean criminal background and not cut out for college, it's one of the best paying careers in many places. And they're almost always hiring.

 

[wink]

If you're a high school grad with a clean criminal background and not cut out for college, it's one of the best paying careers in many places. And they're almost always hiring.

Since 2008 they have mostly not been hiring. And a simple HS diploma doesn't make you very competitive unless you are a vet.

 

[loadtoad]

Only think I noticed is him clearly telling the driver that he couldn't have his ID back until they give him her birthday, and then saying he already gave it back to him and he (the driver) dropped it in the door. I didn't rewatch to see if he ever gave it back or when there was time he could have slipped it back?

Out of curiosity I went back and looked. At time stamp 2:31 he clearly hands the DL back to the driver. So maybe a tactic as the officer was worried he would drive away? I dunno.

 

[wink]

No we just sue the shit out of them, and drive malpractice insurance rates through the roof in the process, which in turn makes us pay even more money for said doctor's services.

Which of course is done to cops and departments just as aggressively or more so. Defending them has kept Mrs Wink busy for 30 years. But unlike docs cops always get criminally investigated and actually are regularly criminally prosecuted.

 

[Spekkio]

Since 2008 they have mostly not been hiring. And a simple HS diploma doesn't make you very competitive unless you are a vet.

Varies by location of course. Many NY departments require some college, but none of them care about GPA. It's strictly based on entrance exam scores. There are a lot of of people who screwed around in high school who can ace that test for PDs that don't require any college.

 

[FinkUFreaky]

Out of curiosity I went back and looked. At time stamp 2:31 he clearly hands the DL back to the driver. So maybe a tactic as the officer was worried he would drive away? I dunno.

Thanks for doing my research for me! I didn't remember seeing that, and thought it was odd that he told him no he can't have it back yet, and then when the third cop showed up explaining the rest. That totally makes sense though.

 

[Gatordev]

But imagine wearing a camera that records you job performance at the worst possible time. When things go to shit and you have to be perfect.

That's been a thing in aviation for some time, with vary levels of granularity. It's just that, generally speaking, flying is a way easier job.

Cockpit camers have long been proposed. They would be very useful in mishap investigations, but the pilots have rejected them over and over.

These are actually pretty common in a lot of commercial helo aircraft. Thankfully we don't have them yet in mine, but they're coming.

 

[HAL Pilot]

I don’t think cameras will make it into 121 cockpits in the foreseeable future. Pilots and pilot unions see too much chance for abuse by management and the FAA. The cockpit voice recorders have so far been held to the accident investigation only / no punishment standard but that’s probably because they are not easily downloaded being in their accident proof “black box” requiring a maintenance action.

Every proposal for cameras seems to be readily downloadable from the cockpit. Video is too easy to abuse. “Hey see that? They both looked at the FMS at the same time? One is not looking outside!” So much everyday normal stuff that is perfectly safe can easily be twisted into a violation of either the FAR or company rules/procedures and used against a pilot the company doesn’t like. Even with the same “no punishment” regulations and rules we currently have with CVRs, it’s not something pilots are going to believe won’t be abused.

NTSB has been pushing for it for a while but so far the FAA hasn’t acquiesced and Congress hasn’t demanded. Strong lobbying against by the unions has been key too.

I think having a camera always watching you will cause a lot more problems then the accident investigations it would help. Pilots worrying about what the camera sees will cause more mistakes and affect decision making.

 

[wink]

I don’t think cameras will make it into 121 cockpits in the foreseeable future. Pilots and pilot unions see too much chance for abuse by management and the FAA. The cockpit voice recorders have so far been held to the accident investigation only / no punishment standard but that’s probably because they are not easily downloaded being in their accident proof “black box” requiring a maintenance action.

Every proposal for cameras seems to be readily downloadable from the cockpit. Video is too easy to abuse. “Hey see that? They both looked at the FMS at the same time? One is not looking outside!” So much everyday normal stuff that is perfectly safe can easily be twisted into a violation of either the FAR or company rules/procedures and used against a pilot the company doesn’t like. Even with the same “no punishment” regulations and rules we currently have with CVRs, it’s not something pilots are going to believe won’t be abused.

NTSB has been pushing for it for a while but so far the FAA hasn’t acquiesced and Congress hasn’t demanded. Strong lobbying against by the unions has been key too.

I think having a camera always watching you will cause a lot more problems then the accident investigations it would help. Pilots worrying about what the camera sees will cause more mistakes and affect decision making.

I have not supported cameras in airline cockpits. But to be fair, many of the worries the airline unions have were shared by the police unions. Now most back body cams.
Keep in mind a saving Grace of cameras. They also can absolve. More officers are exonerated by camera footage then are disciplined or prosecuted. Citizen makes complaint out of spite, camera proves them liars. Same could happen in pilots' case. Confirms they did the right thing or illustrates for all how intense, impossible their situation was.

 

[HAL Pilot]

I have not supported cameras in airline cockpits. But to be fair, many of the worries the airline unions have were shared by the police unions. Now most back body cams.
Keep in mind a saving Grace of cameras. They also can absolve. More officers are exonerated by camera footage then are disciplined or prosecuted. Citizen makes complaint out of spite, camera proves them liars. Same could happen in pilots' case. Confirms they did the right thing or illustrates for all how intense, impossible their situation was.

I think that police have a need to absolve far more than airline pilots.

I also think the number of times a pilot needs to be absolved is far far fewer than the of a police officer.

I further think the number of times a company will potentially use a camera punish is far far greater than the number of times it would be used to absolve. Especially during contract negotiation time. For the FAA side, they are never looking to absolve as they only care about screw ups not what you did right.

Finally, I think we are probably in agreement on all this.

 

[HAL Pilot]

^ Sorry about repeating myself in the first two sentences.