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Shooting debrief discussion

GroundPounder

Well-Known Member
We had that sort of incident last year. A family called the police and asked them to do a wellness check on their son. Ended up with a loss of life. I can't imagine being the family getting the report back.

I'd have to run our numbers, but we probably deal with at least 10 suicidal threats people each 24 hour period. Some are more critical than others, but they almost always end without the person hurting anyone or us hurting them. That being said, I still wish we were not the go to group for that.

In the past few years, there has been a lot of training and though given to this topic and and how we can better deal with people in crisis.

https://www.policeforum.org/about-icat

https://www.policeforum.org/trainingguide

ICAT is an example that we use.
 

wink

VS NFO. Blue and Gold Officer
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Mrs Wink has had to defend LE in deaths and injury (successfully I might add) that originated with calls for psyc breaks. Her sister is bipolar, and manic. She struggles with meds sometimes. We will NEVER call the police when she has problems. Can't find anyone more pro cop then Mrs Wink. She just knows from experience that even the best trained cops are il-prepared for mental health calls. And you can't ask them to take a knife in the chest because your loved one is just sick. If you have a plumbing problem are you going to call an electrician who happens to know how to change a faucet or you calling a plumber? Now, if said mental health case is shooting out the windows of his home, that is another case. But most are not like that.
 

wink

VS NFO. Blue and Gold Officer
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Fascinating academic study. I just scanned it the first time. Will give it a more thorough read over the holiday. These guys have taken a look at the trends in LE behavior by referencing insurance claims data. As has been reported, the data on police misconduct are not always as refined as they could be for lots a reasons, none of them conspiratorial by the way. But insurance claims have a very high degree of fidelity and generally lots more detail. Every police agency is insured. Every insurer requires claims data be reported. Even the large agencies that are self insured have excess carriers who collect the claims info made on the self insured so the excess carrier's actuaries can establish risk vs premiums for claims over the self insured amount. In other words, the free market profit motive demands the numbers be as accurate as possible.

What they found was that police misconduct has not gone up over the last several years. In most cases it has gone down. But successful claim amounts have gone up. A likely reason for this is that society, in the form of juries, is less tolerant of police misconduct all the while there is less of it. Why that is could be a few different things, one being visibility from body cams and media focus. Another is that frivolous complaints against cops are going down since cameras and documentation of more thorough training have made it much harder to shake down the police to make a complaint go away.

Take a good look at the tables. Keep in mind this data is highly accurate. I am surprised at the numbers for claims vs successful payouts vs claims going to trial vs successful plaintiffs verdict. I find the payouts in settlement low from what I expected based on my personal observations. and the percent of plaintiffs verdicts in trial as low as I expected, but the award in a plaintiffs verdict lower than I expected. Also interesting are the types of misconduct and amount of payouts are for the behavior. The most claims are for property damage and the second, at just 23% are uses of force.
Only 17% of use of force claims that went to law suit got a payout. Just 6% of claims where there was no law suit resulted in money payouts. Put another way, when a use of force claim becomes civil law suit, with all the interest of lawyers, judges, mediators, and other interested parties, to include a jury, the determination is in favor of the police in 83% of the cases.
 

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wink

VS NFO. Blue and Gold Officer
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
A few months ago Phoenix PD started issuing "Critical Incident Briefs." These are pretty well made professional videos with maps, aerial imagery, actual 911 and PD radio and telephone calls, and all the video they can present in a public forum. A factual narrative ties it all together. They have been issuing these about 3-4 weeks after an incident. By then most of the basic evidence is in, but no determinations have been made on policy or legal issues.

I think this sort of thing is a good idea. While it is a police production, it is clear in everyone I have seen that they are factual and fair. They are clearly more informative and fair then the edited video you see on the news or youtube without context or the more often then not evidence of justification that comes hours or days later. Even at 3 weeks, the narrative will already be seized by critics. In this case, some headlines stated the police shot a mentally disturbed person without mentioning the gun. In others it was mentioned that it was unload, as reported by the boyfriend, but not that the cops heard what sounded like two shots (you will think so too if you watch the video). At the end of this video other video briefings such as this one are available for viewing.
 

AllYourBass

I'm okay with the events unfolding currently
pilot
A few months ago Phoenix PD started issuing "Critical Incident Briefs." These are pretty well made professional videos with maps, aerial imagery, actual 911 and PD radio and telephone calls, and all the video they can present in a public forum. A factual narrative ties it all together. They have been issuing these about 3-4 weeks after an incident. By then most of the basic evidence is in, but no determinations have been made on policy or legal issues.

I think this sort of thing is a good idea. While it is a police production, it is clear in everyone I have seen that they are factual and fair. They are clearly more informative and fair then the edited video you see on the news or youtube without context or the more often then not evidence of justification that comes hours or days later. Even at 3 weeks, the narrative will already be seized by critics. In this case, some headlines stated the police shot a mentally disturbed person without mentioning the gun. In others it was mentioned that it was unload, as reported by the boyfriend, but not that the cops heard what sounded like two shots (you will think so too if you watch the video). At the end of this video other video briefings such as this one are available for viewing.
Can't really argue with transparency. Let's hope that's the direction more organizations decide to move in.
 

scoolbubba

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
A few months ago Phoenix PD started issuing "Critical Incident Briefs." These are pretty well made professional videos with maps, aerial imagery, actual 911 and PD radio and telephone calls, and all the video they can present in a public forum. A factual narrative ties it all together. They have been issuing these about 3-4 weeks after an incident. By then most of the basic evidence is in, but no determinations have been made on policy or legal issues.

I think this sort of thing is a good idea. While it is a police production, it is clear in everyone I have seen that they are factual and fair. They are clearly more informative and fair then the edited video you see on the news or youtube without context or the more often then not evidence of justification that comes hours or days later. Even at 3 weeks, the narrative will already be seized by critics. In this case, some headlines stated the police shot a mentally disturbed person without mentioning the gun. In others it was mentioned that it was unload, as reported by the boyfriend, but not that the cops heard what sounded like two shots (you will think so too if you watch the video). At the end of this video other video briefings such as this one are available for viewing.
Sunlight is the best disinfectant. Good for the PHX PD. Smart. We need note of this from the boys in blue.
 
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