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Random Griz Aviation Musings

Jim123

DD-214 in hand and I'm gonna party like it's 1998
pilot
... also the cultural response to stall warning has changed in GA - example in a full power climb simulating a loss of power after takeoff - full power and aircraft at Vy - the culture change afoot in the CFI community is to teach a very aggressive response to reduce AOA - to the point even getting light in the seat. Mishap data supports this approach - its eye opening for students to see how quickly airspeed bleeds off and AOA increases in an after T/O power failure scenario. Step 1 - "save your life" (unload) Step 2 - pitch for Best Glide.
This has been a change for the better, I think, as well as kind of a renewed emphasis on AoA in the last ten years or so.

I do like the FAA's permissive approach to AoA instrumentation- approach sidestepped a lot of unnecessary regulation while opening things up to let the free market decide. For the most part, the competing add-on systems are pretty good.

There are a few, ahem, curious things out there in the marketplace though: Some installations have the indicator down low on the panel, out of your line of sight... and pretty useless. There is some variety in presentation, and I think that's perfectly okay (Navy and Air Force indicators use different symbology and somehow all of us survived). Then there is a software-only "derived" AoA that uses airspeed, GPS, inertial (AHRS) inputs and spits out an AoA value, which is a pretty bullshit thing to pitch to your customers, but again, I'll leave this up to the free market (I won't say the name of the avionics company, but it's the same as a city in Colorado and also an infamously horrible car built by Dodge from 1976-1980). There's a kind of homebrew AoA system that uses a simple differential pressure gauge and a special bifurcated pitot probe (sort of two pitot probes, one angled up and the other angled down). Unfortunately, this particular method is actually quite inaccurate (I can show you an old NACA report that explains why) but again, it's up to the free market to decide.

The other half of the problem is the older most pilots get, the more dogmatic they get in their thinking. In defense of old, ornery pilots, the sales literature for most AoA instruments presents them as little more than glorified stall warning systems- the popular aviation magazines guilty of this too.
 

ChuckMK23

Well-Known Member
pilot
This has been a change for the better, I think, as well as kind of a renewed emphasis on AoA in the last ten years or so.

I do like the FAA's permissive approach to AoA instrumentation- approach sidestepped a lot of unnecessary regulation while opening things up to let the free market decide. For the most part, the competing add-on systems are pretty good.

There are a few, ahem, curious things out there in the marketplace though: Some installations have the indicator down low on the panel, out of your line of sight... and pretty useless. There is some variety in presentation, and I think that's perfectly okay (Navy and Air Force indicators use different symbology and somehow all of us survived). Then there is a software-only "derived" AoA that uses airspeed, GPS, inertial (AHRS) inputs and spits out an AoA value, which is a pretty bullshit thing to pitch to your customers, but again, I'll leave this up to the free market (I won't say the name of the avionics company, but it's the same as a city in Colorado and also an infamously horrible car built by Dodge from 1976-1980). There's a kind of homebrew AoA system that uses a simple differential pressure gauge and a special bifurcated pitot probe (sort of two pitot probes, one angled up and the other angled down). Unfortunately, this particular method is actually quite inaccurate (I can show you an old NACA report that explains why) but again, it's up to the free market to decide.

The other half of the problem is the older most pilots get, the more dogmatic they get in their thinking. In defense of old, ornery pilots, the sales literature for most AoA instruments presents them as little more than glorified stall warning systems- the popular aviation magazines guilty of this too.
You airline guys and your AQP syllabus lead the way here - refreshing that it trickled down to GA.
 

Jim123

DD-214 in hand and I'm gonna party like it's 1998
pilot
You airline guys and your AQP syllabus lead the way here - refreshing that it trickled down to GA.
I think the most amazing about that is that the FAA advisory circular for transport airplanes and upsets (unusual attitude recovery) and the equivalent ICAO document both say almost the same thing as each other! 😲
 

Griz882

Livin' On the Right Side of the River From Pags!
pilot
Contributor
I've mentioned this before, but the STS that you saw as a stud was a manufactured event and the procedures were a little different in NATOPS than in the FTI. The upset and recovery was created by your IP to make it seem more dramatic to get the point across, but the actual maneuver (and subsequent recovery) in NATOPS wouldn't cause the aggressive snap and roll-over onto the planes' back. Recovery was supposed to be very quick, as well, unlike the FTI procedure. I can't remember the number, but ~<200' lost.
Great..thanks...I went to puppet show, loved it, but now you’ve shown me the strings. Next thing you’ll tell me is that my primary instructor wasn’t actually related to God.
 

wink

VS NFO. Blue and Gold Officer
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Never was a CFI or instructor in the Navy. And I haven't been under instruction in GA for nearly 40 years. I do have a lot of time in a 65hp 750lb EOW Luscombe, and other light GA. Plenty of that in high DA conditions. I made lots of go arounds in gusty cross winds gaining confidence in the sporty landing tailwheel Luscombe. That experience made me cringe when I read above, "pitched to go around", just as much as the thought of not using full power, SR22 or not. I don't know what they teach now, but in almost any GA plane, or others near gross and hot/high, I always simply stopped the decent, then pitched to climb. That may take 2 seconds, it may take 3-5 seconds. There just isn't enough power to get back to best climb speed if you have already slowed below and then pitch first to go around. Got a sinker going due to a loose nut on the stick, or atmospherics and it becomes more important.

When I first starting flying Luscombes had a CFI friend show me a good cross control drill. Slow to just about stall, level flight. Feed in the rudder keeping wings level until stall buffet and then back to neutral, then the other. One rudder and then the other over and over. He called it a stall walk.
 

AllAmerican75

Back to School!
None
Contributor
... also the cultural response to stall warning has changed in GA - example in a full power climb simulating a loss of power after takeoff - full power and aircraft at Vy - the culture change afoot in the CFI community is to teach a very aggressive response to reduce AOA - to the point even getting light in the seat. Mishap data supports this approach - its eye opening for students to see how quickly airspeed bleeds off and AOA increases in an after T/O power failure scenario. Step 1 - "save your life" (unload) Step 2 - pitch for Best Glide.
Is that similar to what this video is talking about?

 

FrankTheTank

Professional Pot Stirrer
pilot
How much is it costing you guys per month to fly/maintain an RV ?
$160 hanger
$3.xx per gallon for gas. I burn anywhere between 7-10 gallons an hour
$7.00 quart of oil. I have only burned a 1/2 quart in 20 hours.
$877.00 a year for insurance
No maintenance issues so no idea.

Lycoming IO360 B1B 204.0 on the Hobbs as of today.
 
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FrankTheTank

Professional Pot Stirrer
pilot
Got out solo today (was hot) but been working all week so wanted to burn some dead dinosaurs. Quick over fly of my house and then about 20 minutes of aerobatics

Was gonna attach a selfie but kept inserting sideways.
 

Jim123

DD-214 in hand and I'm gonna party like it's 1998
pilot
Is that similar to what this video is talking about?
Yes, similar, but suffice to say he's a salesman for his product- in particular training for the "loss of thrust on takeoff" scenario and how it can lead to what's called a departure stall (departure meaning departure from an airport in the phase of flight sense, not departure from controlled flight in the stick-and-rudder sense and aerodynamics). It's something he's passionate about. He tends to be outspoken too; often after a small plane crash, he'll volunteer his opinion about pilot training and stall-spin accidents.
 

Griz882

Livin' On the Right Side of the River From Pags!
pilot
Contributor
Got out solo today (was hot) but been working all week so wanted to burn some dead dinosaurs. Quick over fly of my house and then about 20 minutes of aerobatics

Was gonna attach a selfie but kept inserting sideways.
I hope to get out tomorrow morning. I’ll head east to the coast and maybe land at Accomack Country just south of Wallop’s Flight Facility. I’ll get some pictures if I see anything worth it.
 

wink

VS NFO. Blue and Gold Officer
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Yes, similar, but suffice to say he's a salesman for his product- in particular training for the "loss of thrust on takeoff" scenario and how it can lead to what's called a departure stall (departure meaning departure from an airport in the phase of flight sense, not departure from controlled flight in the stick-and-rudder sense and aerodynamics). It's something he's passionate about. He tends to be outspoken too; often after a small plane crash, he'll volunteer his opinion about pilot training and stall-spin accidents.
In both types of planes I owned, I had simulated the turn back, added a safety margin, practiced it, and now I know the altitude I need. Add it to departure elevation and you have a decision point on the altimeter. Playing with it is fun. Throw out some flaps to tighten the turn and buy a few knots. Stupid to just say "never turn back". It isn't rocket surgery. Doesn't seem like there is a lot of training money to be made there.
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
How much is it costing you guys per month to fly/maintain an RV ?
You might want to be a little more specific with which kind of RV. As Chuck's post shows, there's the LSA version that sips fuel or the other extreme of the RV-10 with a -540 and CS prop.

Yes, similar, but suffice to say he's a salesman for his product- in particular training for the "loss of thrust on takeoff" scenario and how it can lead to what's called a departure stall (departure meaning departure from an airport in the phase of flight sense, not departure from controlled flight in the stick-and-rudder sense and aerodynamics). It's something he's passionate about. He tends to be outspoken too; often after a small plane crash, he'll volunteer his opinion about pilot training and stall-spin accidents.
There was a pretty good discussion about that Flight Chops video on the owner's distro I'm on for my plane. It boiled down that Flight Chops had his heart in the right place in making the video, but it wasn't necessarily accurate in how 121 guys do it and over-simplified matters. And while Flight Chops has a lot of content and neat experiences, at the end of the day, he's not a CFI and not a super-high time guy.

I just wish we could get away from the term "stall/spin." Even the FAA uses it sometimes and it's not accurate. A loss of control/departure from controlled flight at low altitude (like in a pattern) isn't a spin, it's a departure with asymetrical lift that causes a rolling motion. I'm not even sure a plane could go incipient at that low an altitude, even if spin inputs were put in, which are pretty aggressive inputs to begin with.

Off my soap box.
 

scoolbubba

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
In both types of planes I owned, I had simulated the turn back, added a safety margin, practiced it, and now I know the altitude I need. Add it to departure elevation and you have a decision point on the altimeter. Playing with it is fun. Throw out some flaps to tighten the turn and buy a few knots. Stupid to just say "never turn back". It isn't rocket surgery. Doesn't seem like there is a lot of training money to be made there.
Hence the (as required) on my don't turn back to the field. You are, more likely than not, a statistical outlier in that you know the energy required in your aircraft to make the 180 back. I get to screw around in the T-6 sims and planes and built up the same kind of gouge for knowing when I can make the cross runway engine out off the departure/downwind/crosswind and when I've bought my Martin-baker tie. Most single engine pilots don't know the energy required to play that card, much less practice it or even fly in a way that even makes it possible.

In most cases, buying the farm via a departure stall is more expensive than renting the plot of land off the end of the runway.
 
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