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Random Griz Aviation Musings

Griz882

Livin' On the Right Side of the River From Pags!
pilot
Contributor
I don't remember the "slow flight" maneuver in the T-34 (paging @Gatordev ??)...

Back to general aviation, I think a lot of pattern stalls @nittany03 , also remember that the propeller wash on the elevators causes a lot of pitch up, much more pitch change than going full mil and/or burner in a jet (other than some jets with the engines in underwing pods, where the thrust line is well below the c.g.).
Skidded Turn Stall in the T-34? I remember that the demo was an eye opener!
 

Jim123

DD-214 in hand and I'm gonna party like it's 1998
pilot
Skidded Turn Stall in the T-34? I remember that the demo was an eye opener!
That was something else but yes, it was one of the best ones.

Unfortunately, it got taken out of the syllabus so the best I could legally do was to pull it up on youtube (the briefing spaces have computers).
 

nittany03

Big hairy American winning machine
pilot
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
@nittany03 , also remember that the propeller wash on the elevators causes a lot of pitch up, much more pitch change than going full mil and/or burner in a jet (other than some jets with the engines in underwing pods, where the thrust line is well below the c.g.).
Yep . . . and the other difference is that pistons will generally give you power right away . . . which is why you can't just cob on the throttle and let the fuel control unit catch up like you do with a turbine. In a turboprop or jet, the spoolup will take some time, but in a piston, the power is right there. Which is why you need to be smooth with the throttle and also assertive with whatever controls that particular airplane needs to maintain coordinated flight at a safe AOA.

And that's a shame they got rid of the skidded-turn stall; I remember getting that demoed and being like "holy shit, I'm inverted; what just happened?"
 

ChuckMK23

Well-Known Member
pilot
That was something else but yes, it was one of the best ones.

Unfortunately, it got taken out of the syllabus so the best I could legally do was to pull it up on youtube (the briefing spaces have computers).
26713
 
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Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
I don't remember the "slow flight" maneuver in the T-34 (paging @Gatordev ??) but the one in the T-6 for the last ten years involved really goosing the throttle to demonstrate what your hands and feet needed to do and in an exaggerated way. We'd do it a couple ways, one with maintaining ball, heading, and pitch attitude and the other with letting the airplane do what it wanted to do naturally- which would be quickly pitch up into the stick shaker and buffet, ball out to the side, rolling to the side from the combination of the skidding ball and propeller torque. Occasionally guys would depart controlled flight (which the IP was supposed to prevent... dumbass).
The slow flight maneuver in the T-34 was more about learning where the edge was with a little aerodynamics thrown in (poorly, in my opinion, as I didn't understand one of the points made in the FTI even as an IUT, initially). But a big part of that was because the T-34 was so forgiving. The basics of the maneuver were:

  • straight and level at 25-26 units
  • seeing the plane "stall" in a level turn (it didn't stall, but you'd go up into the shakers
  • seeing adverse yaw by turning with no pedals (this was what I thought was educational but not taught well, at least to me initially)
  • applying power and accelerating in level flight, noting how fast the AOA comes back with the increase in power
While there was tons of thrust and a lot of down trim was needed to maintain level flight I don't remember pitching up to a point of stalling being an issue, but I think the procedures were designed that way.

The power-off stall didn't require a power recovery, just a return to the 100 knot glide, which was more about recovering while in the ELP. There was blurbage about recovering too quickly, causing a secondary departure.

And yes, I did just pull out my FTI to reference a few things, but the numbers were still attached to some penguins still clinging to the iceberg, so I guess I still have some brain cells left.

And that's a shame they got rid of the skidded-turn stall; I remember getting that demoed and being like "holy shit, I'm inverted; what just happened?"
I've mentioned this before, but the STS that you saw as a stud was a manufactured event and the procedures were a little different in NATOPS than in the FTI. The upset and recovery was created by your IP to make it seem more dramatic to get the point across, but the actual maneuver (and subsequent recovery) in NATOPS wouldn't cause the aggressive snap and roll-over onto the planes' back. Recovery was supposed to be very quick, as well, unlike the FTI procedure. I can't remember the number, but ~<200' lost.

I'm not saying it wasn't a good demo, but something that wasn't fully explained to studs. Keep in mind, the basics of aerodynamics apply to the slip that also apply to the skid, with the potential for the same catastrophic results, and everyone was taught to slip all day long. But the main point was to make sure studs weren't trying to make the straight away in the pattern with a lot of rudder and instead just wave off, since you were getting close to the critical AOA of the plane at those speeds.
 

ChuckMK23

Well-Known Member
pilot
The ACS was changed a few years ago for slow-flight and it makes much more sense now. I always teach turns in slow flight with the "add or remove right rudder/pedal" technique - the student sees that all 4 of the left turning forces hard at work attacking the right foot!

Establish and maintain an airspeed, approximately 5-10 knots above the 1G stall speed, at which the airplane is capable of maintaining controlled flight without activating a stall warning.
 

Jim123

DD-214 in hand and I'm gonna party like it's 1998
pilot
The ACS was changed a few years ago for slow-flight and it makes much more sense now. I always teach turns in slow flight with the "add or remove right rudder/pedal" technique - the student sees that all 4 of the left turning forces hard at work attacking the right foot!

Establish and maintain an airspeed, approximately 5-10 knots above the 1G stall speed, at which the airplane is capable of maintaining controlled flight without activating a stall warning.
That new ACS slow flight has caused a lot of contention- mostly the idea that you fail the checkride if the stall warning makes even a peep (maybe, maybe not).

Maybe they should have named it something else, just not "slow flight." Or maybe they should have added a new maneuver named something else instead, basically copy the old one that had you nibbling at the airplane's stall warning and/or buffet and learning how to handle the airplane in that regime- not that any new pilot should make a habit out of it, but it's like a student driver spending time in a slippery parking lot. A little familiarity will help a lot with the "startle and surprise" factor later on. If a new driver is dumb enough to practice it on the open road and they crash, that's on their crappy judgment, not the driver's ed syllabus. I think the FAA's rationale with the revised maneuver was a bit misguided- I think the FAA thought that student pilots got acclimated to the sound and feel of stall warning and buffet, and that sense of comfort would result in crappy judgment in new pilots. Perhaps, but I disagree.
 

ChuckMK23

Well-Known Member
pilot
That new ACS slow flight has caused a lot of contention- mostly the idea that you fail the checkride if the stall warning makes even a peep (maybe, maybe not).
I would kick any examiner/check airman in the balls if they did this - lol. The intent is for the pilot to do be seen doing something as a result of the warning. Its fine if the warning comes on - esp during PP checkrides. The applicant just needs to be seen reducing AOA.
 

ChuckMK23

Well-Known Member
pilot
... also the cultural response to stall warning has changed in GA - example in a full power climb simulating a loss of power after takeoff - full power and aircraft at Vy - the culture change afoot in the CFI community is to teach a very aggressive response to reduce AOA - to the point even getting light in the seat. Mishap data supports this approach - its eye opening for students to see how quickly airspeed bleeds off and AOA increases in an after T/O power failure scenario. Step 1 - "save your life" (unload) Step 2 - pitch for Best Glide.
 

scoolbubba

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
... also the cultural response to stall warning has changed in GA - example in a full power climb simulating a loss of power after takeoff - full power and aircraft at Vy - the culture change afoot in the CFI community is to teach a very aggressive response to reduce AOA - to the point even getting light in the seat. Mishap data supports this approach - its eye opening for students to see how quickly airspeed bleeds off and AOA increases in an after T/O power failure scenario. Step 1 - "save your life" (unload) Step 2 - pitch for Best Glide.
Step 3. Don't turn back to the field (as required)
 
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