Primary Training Locations

[bunk22]

I'm starting to see in this primary gig, SNA's make the same general mistakes over and over. I've even flown with some guys with prior flight time, not impressed thus far. Made same mistakes as other studs. As what this brings to this debate, I don't know being I only read the last page and felt I'd add something, anything. Bunky out.

 

[tk628]

my .02 for what its worth you can't teach experience...

Many studs have no checklist discipline because they haven't seen what f'n one up can do

Many studs have no respect for weather/icing, because they haven't kissed terra firma after taking things too far once upon a time

Many studs (and some others) still take the most dangerous things possible into the cockpit everyday... egos, and yet they have no idea the are doing this.

Many studs don't know anything but the books... airman ship is as common as common sense. You can not teach airman ship, it is a quality that an aviator must learn and refine continuously, a hard pill to swallow when you only have 50 hours under your belt.

That being said, old habits die hard. If the 500 hour guy was a sh!t pilot before he/she will probably remain that way.

For the record, I'm at Vance, I had a couple hours before here so what... doesn't make my pants get any bigger... doesn't mean the procedures don't apply to me. Is it easier for me? Maybe, depends on your definition of easy. Have you ever tried to run a square peg through a round hole? It requires some drastic 'reshaping.'

I have seen great 300 hour pilots and crap 3000 hour pilots. The theory that ability is based on ink, is flawed and needs to be kicked to the curb. If you believe in ink, fly with a guy who has 10,000 hours and hasn't touched the stick in 15 years. Or one who flies every day as an instructor, good with the procedures, but the hands are the first thing to go sometimes (personal experience).

Fortunately for me, I grew up so to speak under the instruction of someone who wore gold wings, which gave me a different perspective (just good enough is not acceptable; +/-0, or better at all times) than your average pilot-mill stud who was taught by an instructor with no experience, to hold "commercial standard."

I get the mantra, I'm trying to join your club, and I respect the initiation. Humility, and hard work are what turns mere men into aviators, and even though the technology changes, planes get faster and more advanced, those traits remain static in time. Conversely all aviators are still but just men. Even those great 30,000 hour pilots are human, complacency/ poor judgment/bad luck kills them too.

In the end time only really matters to the people who shouldn't be flying.

 

[robav8r]

In the end time only really matters to the people who shouldn't be flying.

Dude, i've been drinking some good wine for awhile now, and even "I" could not have come up with something so profound - nice job !!!

 

[insanebikerboy]

Fortunately for me, I grew up so to speak under the instruction of someone who wore gold wings

Been hanging around the Air Farce too long, huh?

 

[bunk22]

my .02 for what its worth you can't teach experience...

Even if you could, my bet is most JO's wouldn't listen.

Many studs have no checklist discipline because they haven't seen what f'n one up can do

Many studs have no respect for weather/icing, because they haven't kissed terra firma after taking things too far once upon a time

Many studs (and some others) still take the most dangerous things possible into the cockpit everyday... egos, and yet they have no idea the are doing this.

Many studs don't know anything but the books... airman ship is as common as common sense. You can not teach airman ship, it is a quality that an aviator must learn and refine continuously, a hard pill to swallow when you only have 50 hours under your belt.

Some of what you say unfortunetly holds true for many fleet guys/gals. A fuck up in checklist, no respect for the weather, lack of discipline, etc has and will lead pilots into bad situations. The ego thing can often lead to very bad things. If left unchecked, bad things can only come of it. One has to know their limits, challenge themselves but know what the line is. I'm talking beyond studs here......all the way to the front office. The old assumption of I'd rather be lucky than good certainly holds true I think.

 

[tk628]

Even if you could, my bet is most JO's wouldn't listen.

I would venture to gamble the truth in this, but think about when you were an invincable aviator, the stories you heard of so and so doing this, or whats his name doing that, it would never happen to you right? I confess I fell into a similar trap once upon a time, and fotunately for me, I walked away from my mistakes, but I've seen those that have not. Until it happens to you, I think we can all agree the respect for reality is minimal.

A fuck up in checklist, no respect for the weather, lack of discipline, etc has and will lead pilots into bad situations. The ego thing can often lead to very bad things. If left unchecked, bad things can only come of it. One has to know their limits, challenge themselves but know what the line is. I'm talking beyond studs here......all the way to the front office. The old assumption of I'd rather be lucky than good certainly holds true I think.

True, but right now I can only call it from my side of the line, I'm sure you can figure out who the "others" are to me without me saying it... trying not to step on too many toes being the little guy and all.

Part of the problem is the process to change procedure even if by some long shot you do find a better way, seems so complicated, people generally just do it however they want with disregard to the paper in my experience. The general cover up word "technique." Which is a nice word for "opinion" which we all is like an ass hole, everyone's got one and they usually stink.

Ok that last part may be a SLIGHT exaggeration, but 10 pilots have 10 different ways to do the same thing...That probably goes back to ego.

Aviation is an unforgiving, time critical business military or not. Altitude above you, knots in front of you, and fuel in the truck do you no good. No matter who you are, you can not outsmart the airplane, and if you try to, you will most likely lose. Some live to tell about it, some do not.

I don't think the environment that pilots operate in is stressed enough with the glitz and glamor of being a pilot. I can tell you 8 hours in a cockpit, peeing in a Gatorade bottle are not glitzy. I can tell you the first time your friend doesn't come back, its not glamorous. I can tell you propellers were meant to keep the pilot cool, because when they stop, the pilots starts to sweat. But I can't tell you there is a better job in the world, because seriously, with the doom and gloom I may have just painted, flying is not really a job. (I know I know the ground jobs and such, but thats not what I'm talking about).

Pilots get to defy the bounds of the earth, at speeds far in excess of the average person, they understand a totally different part of the world than the average person, and most importantly/eventually for most, they get paid to never grow up. I wouldn't trade the good times away for anything, but be aware of the not so good ones, no one is above them, remember its just ink.

 

[kmac]

Even if you could, my bet is most JO's wouldn't listen.

Agreed, and I think that has to do with the ego issue as well. Even as an "O-4 basher" (as I was called by an O-4) I can see where us junior folks just don't listen all the time. Even as a C-2 "instructor" I sometimes get the feeling that what I am saying falls on deaf ears. As is the case for most experiences in life, the only ones that seem to impart reflection are our own.

 

[bunk22]

Agreed, and I think that has to do with the ego issue as well. Even as an "O-4 basher" (as I was called by an O-4) I can see where us junior folks just don't listen all the time. Even as a C-2 "instructor" I sometimes get the feeling that what I am saying falls on deaf ears. As is the case for most experiences in life, the only ones that seem to impart reflection are our own.

I too was an O-4 basher as an O-2/O-3. Now I just bash O-5's and other O-4's The primary guys will listen to you but not necessarily hear you. The experience level is the issue. Start good habits now and maybe bad habits won't develop down the road....you know who I speak of as well.

 

[bunk22]

I would venture to gamble the truth in this, but think about when you were an invincable aviator, the stories you heard of so and so doing this, or whats his name doing that, it would never happen to you right? I confess I fell into a similar trap once upon a time, and fotunately for me, I walked away from my mistakes, but I've seen those that have not. Until it happens to you, I think we can all agree the respect for reality is minimal.

Well, I can say what I say because I've been there done that. I didn't listen as much as I should have. I had a student put me in the dirt, even when I was literally on the controls. There was a time when I just thought it would never happen to me.

True, but right now I can only call it from my side of the line, I'm sure you can figure out who the "others" are to me without me saying it... trying not to step on too many toes being the little guy and all.


I don't think the environment that pilots operate in is stressed enough with the glitz and glamor of being a pilot. I can tell you 8 hours in a cockpit, peeing in a Gatorade bottle are not glitzy. I can tell you the first time your friend doesn't come back, its not glamorous. I can tell you propellers were meant to keep the pilot cool, because when they stop, the pilots starts to sweat. But I can't tell you there is a better job in the world, because seriously, with the doom and gloom I may have just painted, flying is not really a job. (I know I know the ground jobs and such, but thats not what I'm talking about).

Pilots get to defy the bounds of the earth, at speeds far in excess of the average person, they understand a totally different part of the world than the average person, and most importantly/eventually for most, they get paid to never grow up. I wouldn't trade the good times away for anything, but be aware of the not so good ones, no one is above them, remember its just ink.

You have yet to start or are in flight school? Have you spent 8 hours in a cockpit? A lot of info or knowledge speak from someone who hasn't been there done that.

 

[tk628]

I'm in flight school, and I haven't done it all, but principals carry over from some of the civilian flying I've done, like I said I before I had a couple (X,XXX) hours before here. PM me if you want the whole background, but its not that important.

As far as the 8 hour flights I would regularly (3 summers ago) go 8 hours with out landing on the weekends with a couple of total flight days over 10, 6 on the weekdays. The last 2, I only had 4 hours of gas on board so I would be able to stop in the middle. I can think of one week last summer where I logged 70 hours in 8 days.

And yes I've peed in a Gatorade bottle, the wide mouth ones work better when you are trying to keep her going at 400' AGL.

 

[FLYTPAY]

I really doubt that you'll be accelerated in your Primary training. One of the guys in my class is an Avaition grad from the U of North Dakaota, is a CFI and has multi-engine tickets etc...he has on the order of 900 hours and he was not accelerated...much to my dismay sometimes cause he's woopin my arse!
...

Accelerate BIs and the last part of RI if you want to game the NSS...Me and another retread accelerated, did great and are both enjoying T-45s in Meridian.

 

[bunk22]

I'm in flight school, and I haven't done it all, but principals carry over from some of the civilian flying I've done, like I said I before I had a couple (X,XXX) hours before here. PM me if you want the whole background, but its not that important.

Your in Primary or beyond now? Don't need a background. Point was a lot of talk, expertise if you will, for someone who hasn't been there done that. I meant military flying, not civilian. I agree though, principals carry over or can carry over.

As far as the 8 hour flights I would regularly (3 summers ago) go 8 hours with out landing on the weekends with a couple of total flight days over 10, 6 on the weekdays. The last 2, I only had 4 hours of gas on board so I would be able to stop in the middle. I can think of one week last summer where I logged 70 hours in 8 days.

Sounds rough :sleep_125

 

[tk628]

To be honest you asked if I ever really spent that kinda time a cockpit; it wasn't rough all the time, but it wasn't always easy. I was just noting that flying is not all glitz and glamor that some think it is. Granted this is a civilian pilot perspective, but I would hard pressed to hear you say that the being a naval aviator is just like the movies.

Your right I'm in primary (Vance), I'm not an expert by any stretch, but I didn't always think that. I'm just your average Ensign, take what I say with a brick of salt, I don't know the military all to well so far, but I've figured out no matter what the background, flight school will challenge all.

I speak not from an expertise level, but from a level that I've been somewhere, not necessarily "there" but a general vicinity per say. Its not like the aerodynamics changes between a King Air and a T44 all too much. And I know many people who have guided me who have been "there." I was merely giving my $.02 as I had originally stated.

I'm not the best, nor will I probably ever be such, but I'll never quit trying to become that. I think all would agree that aviation is extremely dynamic no matter which side of the line you fly on, so sometimes, another perspective is not always bad, even if it comes from less "experience."

My apologies if my youthful remarks and observations are thought of as gospel, but that's why they call them opinions.

 

[Gatordev]

Even if you could, my bet is most JO's wouldn't listen.

I understand what you're saying, but sometimes not listening has positive results. One prime example I've experienced was the black hole at the back of the boat. I heard about it, I respected it, but I didn't understand it. Finally one night I found it. Fortunately my HAC let me experience it just enough to find respect before saving me. After that, I understood it (and to date, never returned...on my own accord, anyway).

 

[bunk22]

For tk628, I'm just giving ya a hard time bud........like ready room banter via the net. Your skin seems thick, you shouldn't have any issues :icon_smil