• Please take a moment and update your account profile. If you have an updated account profile with basic information on why you are on Air Warriors it will help other people respond to your posts. How do you update your profile you ask?

    Go here:

    Edit Account Details and Profile

Open carry - anybody do it?

Flash

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Pugs said:
Well, how are you going to be able to link it hard unless you change nothing else and see a decrease? This isn't exactly a controlled experiment! I believe that it's more than "a leap of faith" but instead would be better described as a series of efforts, including more concealed carry, that has made a difference.

Should you wish to stick to your guns (so to speak ;) ) I think it is equally impossible to prove it has not made a difference.
Click to expand...

So the the impossibility of proving a link proves your point? I know that you are smarter than that Pugs......;)

One thing to keep in mind, New York City has seen a dramatic drop in crime in that same time period, yet it has some of the most restrictive gun laws in the entire country. How do you explain that? I would say it is combination of effective policing, changing demographics and the gentrification of the city. Strict gun laws haven't had much of an effect in DC though, so I wouldn't say they work too much in many cases, though they do in some.

P.S. The Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act was signed into law in 1993 and went into effect in 1994, maybe that helped? :D
 
C420sailor

C420sailor

Former Rhino Bro
pilot
I open carry regularly (in PA). I've never had the cops called on me. I've never been asked to leave a store. I've never really gotten any looks except from some people who appear to be criminals themselves. I've run into cops on the street and they usually just say "Nice weapon" and continue on. I've never had my ID run, or been asked for my carry permit. I've seen people "carry concealed" by pulling their t-shirt over their large frame auto---why bother? All you're doing in that case is slowing your draw.

Why do I open carry? Because sometimes I feel that I need superior firepower (14 rounds of .45ACP) and I'm not going to wear a jacket in the summer heat. Or sometimes I just feel like exercising my 2nd Amendment right.
 
A4sForever

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
Flash said:
.....P.S. The Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act was signed into law in 1993 and went into effect in 1994, maybe that helped? :D
Click to expand...
P.P.S. ... I seriously doubt that ... more than likely, the exit of the weak, indecisive, and corrupt David Dinkins administration from the New York Mayor's office and his replacement in the guise of one Rudolph W. Giuliani in 1994 had more to do w/ the drop in NYC crime rates than any other single thing.

Brady Bill ??? I laugh. Criminals don't do waiting periods. :)

I also think things like improved economic opportunity in the city, zero-tolerance police attitudes toward petty crimes, "broken windows" policing strategies, and results-oriented NYC police commisioners like William Bratton and Howard Safir had more to do w/ the drop in NYC crime rates than a feeble attempt to link the drop to the discredited and unconstitutional Brady Bill which expired in 1998.
 
Pugs

Pugs

Back from the range
None
Flash said:
One thing to keep in mind, New York City has seen a dramatic drop in crime in that same time period, yet it has some of the most restrictive gun laws in the entire country. How do you explain that?
Click to expand...

You can't have it both ways friend. You put the onus on me to prove that increased right to carry laws have decreased crime yet you cannot prove they have haven't. I've freely acknowledged that I will not say I can prove it has been the driving factor in the decrease in violent crime however there is no provable way to say it was not a factor. Potato vs Potato.

NYC gun laws have been consistently restrictive since their virtual ban on handguns (unless you're rich and/or important) in 1981 however we have only really started to see a drop in crime there since the late 80's early 90's when Rudy Giuliani instituted his "broken windows" campaign which included 7000 more police on the streets. Of course, this was also simultaneous with an increasing economy and urban renewal in NYC. I was in NYC two weeks ago and it certainly has the appearance of a police state. There was literally a cop on every corner of midtown and the periphery, yes a friendly cop but you can see why overt crime has decreased. Personally, it's not my vision of America and you've traveled enough to know that it won't work everywhere.

By the way, I'm pretty sure that "reasonable restriction" on "keeping and bearing arms" do not include a restriction on "bearing" , but we'll find out if the founding fathers thought "ohhh let's make nine individual rights and one states right in the Bill of Rights that'll keep em guessing" very soon here. I'm pretty darn sure that we'll find they meant for all of them to be individual rights.
 
airgreg

airgreg

low bypass axial-flow turbofan with AB driver
pilot
recommended reading on this subject

I'm not saying I agree with everything he says, but the economist Steven Levitt has an interesting review of crime and gun control in his book "Freakonomics".

Rather than gun control, or "innovative policing", or "broken windows", or efforts by politicians, he argues that the biggest reasons for the drop in crime (esp. in NYC) during the 90's was:
1) Abortion
2) More police on the streets
3) The bursting of the "crack" bubble

Don't jump on me because I said the "A" word. I'm not fluent enough to explain his theories here and I still question them.

Just food for thought, and I'm bastardizing his main logic, but he brings up these issues:
-- GUN CONTROL: too many criminals get their guns illegally on the black market. Tightening restrictions on law abiding citizens will have no effect.
-- ABORTION: Roe v. Wade occurred roughly 20 years before crime started decreasing. He argues that the parents who are more likely to have criminal children are more likely to have abortions, thereby reducing the pool of future criminals. He offers reasons why NYC experienced a greater drop in crime than the rest of the nation.
-- MORE POLICE ON THE STREETS: he argues that more police is the only "policy" that lowers crime. It makes it more "expensive" for criminals to commit crime. The author also believes that increased numbers of police is a function of competitive elections (i.e., Dinkins vs. Giuliani) with both parties competing to increase police. The buildup in NYPD numbers was actually begun under Dinkins, but Guiliani certainly continued it.
-- THE BURSTING OF THE CRACK BUBBLE: the street price of crack cocaine drastically fell during the early 90's (because supply of crack exploded) and shooting people for crack/turf/etc... became a drastically less profitable business.

The author also comments on Open Carry communities and whether it leads to decreases in crime. His conclusion was that it doesn't, but I can't remember the rationale. I think he believed that compared to Abortion/More Police/Crack, all other efforts to curb crime were statistically futile.

Again, I'm not saying he's spot on. But his book is an interesting read and makes you question "conventional wisdom".

And just FYI, I'm a multiple gun owner who supports all sorts of carry as guaranteed by our 2nd Amendment. I just don't believe that criminals are rational actors who respond to right-to-carry laws.
 
Schnugg

Schnugg

It's gettin' a bit dramatic 'round here...
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Glocktalk is also full of really way out there types who stockpile ammo, build bomb shelters, wear aluminum foil hats and talk about SHTF weapons and TEOTWAWKI to no end....

Acro help for the "Sheoples": Shii'ite Hits the Fan...and...The End Of The world As We Know It
 
nittany03

nittany03

Recovering NFO. Herder of Programmers.
pilot
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Schnugg said:
Glocktalk is also full of really way out there types who stockpile ammo,
Click to expand...
Aww, come on. It's cheaper when you buy in bulk! If we could just get Sam's Club to carry ammo . . . :D

But yes, there's disaster preparedness, and then there are people who prove that mental illness is not the sole province of the Left . . . :icon_tong
 
johnny utah

johnny utah

still bigger than hip-hop
pilot
bogey_spotter said:
Generally, I think it is a lot safer than concealed carry simply because it shows your intentions as good. If someone is hiding a gun, and you see a bulge, you don't know if he's a good guy or a bad guy. Plus it shows potential criminals that you are armed and could prevent situations which would require you to draw if you were concealed.
Click to expand...

Fvck, unless you're lifelong friends with the guy, you won't know whether he's just gettin' a gallon of milk, or if he's plannin' on unloading on the cashier, regardless if he's concealed. Plus, if you're showin' heat, he'll know to unload on you first.

Concealed gets my vote.
 
Bevo16

Bevo16

Registered User
pilot
RockyMtnNFO said:
Interesting.... Do you have any reasons for that statement or should we just take that as Gospel goes your the Marine who knows a lot about guns?
Click to expand...


He is a Marine and he is from Texas. What other qualifications does he need? :icon_smil
 
feddoc

feddoc

Really old guy
Contributor
Schnugg said:
Glocktalk is also full of really way out there types who stockpile ammo, build bomb shelters, wear aluminum foil hats and talk about SHTF weapons and TEOTWAWKI to no end....

Acro help for the "Sheoples": Shii'ite Hits the Fan...and...The End Of The world As We Know It
Click to expand...


So, how much is a stockpile? Not that I am worried or anything like that. :smirk_125
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top