OCS type training for all Naval Officers?

[VarmintShooter]

Naval Warfare eh?

Thank God.

 

[Crowbar]

I also think that there should be some kind of commonality in training for everybody...i.e. all officers should go through some sort of standardized training either before or after commissioning. Reason being that like someone said before, from school to school, and even from year group to year group within each university, there is no set level of performance. Sure, you have to get a certain PFA score and have a certain GPA, but in most cases that's about all. It's usually left up to the OCs and MECEPs within each NROTC unit to drop the hammer when people need it. Yeah yeah yeah, the CO/XO/MOI take care of the real **** kids with their 1.8 GPAs and their 18:00 PFA run time (all of you who were in NROTC know I'm not making any of that up). But generally speaking, if someone doesn't know how to wear a uniform, execute a proper salute, render customs and courtesies appropriately, stand at attention, etc, the senior students are the ones who have to correct that, if it gets done at all. As a result, you have widely varying levels of performance within new officers. Each year when the new freshmen come in, it seems like there is always a group of juniors or seniors who takes them in to teach them 'the way' things are done. So again, depending on who their self-appointed mentor is, no standardization.

I also agree that if the Navy were to do this, it should be a full-bore program, not a half-assed summer cruise program akin to CORTRAMID for big people. Edit: I re-read the lousy summer cruise program bit and I agree, that seems to be what I got out of it while I was in college.

People applaud the Marine Corps for using OCS and TBS as common proving grounds. But TBS is not the be all end all leadership academy some claim it to be. It does teach just enough for each new officer to survive long enough in the fleet to find and latch onto a good SNCO. And it gives us all the base of knowledge we can build on. At what point during Nav and Systems classes do Mids learn how the Navy's enlisted promotion system work? Seriously, I never took those classes so I don't know. Is it done in the leadership and management classes? I know for Marine options it is, then it's touched on again at OCS, then a little more in depth at TBS. But the point is, regardless of if/when each university teaches it, you can count on each Marine Lt of having been exposed to it for a certain number of classroom hours, then having a certain number of classroom hours with an NCO and a SNCO to discuss things like that. Not saying Marines are better than the Navy, please don't start that beast up, just comparing our training methods to those the Navy uses.

Okay, enough of my rambling for now, I'm sure I'll come up with more to say on the subject...

 

[Gatordev]

Oh, and as a half-assed rebuttal: what's the responsibility difference between the PPC of an EP-3 and a DivO on your average destroyer? I thought we were all just "mariners of the sky". Arr.

I'm not really sure what your point is, so if my ramblings have nothing to do w/ your post above, then ignore, but...

Let's just change that to "HAC of an SH-60 and a DivO..." so I can speak of something I know, but I would say a HUGE difference if we're talking first or second tour SWO Divos. In my experience, an average first tour Divo is trying to figure out what the hell is going on around him. Not only does he have to figure out how to eat meals, get laundry, and not get seasick, but he has to qualify. Meanwhile, he's thrown into the fray of managing a bunch of sailors in a division that he probably doesn't know anything about (we're talking non-retreads, here). Something has got to give, and if that Divo has a half-way decent chief, the management is what slides (on average, obviously there are exceptions). If you look at a nugget, he will have to be responsible for some ground job that isn't all that taxing, and then studying for HAC. But he gets eased into the fray a bit more and gets to see what goes on before getting thrown into the deep end like his SWO brother.

Now look at the HAC on his cruise. Let's say he's a Maintenance Officer. So not only is he responsible for learning his tactics and general Natops knowledge, he also has to earn and maintain his Functional Check Pilot qual, plus teach the nuggets the responsibilities of being an LSO, all while being on the flight schedule once or twice a day. Oh, and we haven't even got to the point where he's also managing 16 or so maintainers, responsible for making sure that at least one aircraft is flyable, keeping track of whether parts are actually on their way to fix the other down bird, is the QAO and program manager for a gazillion different programs, and a multitude of other things I've forgotten. Again, this is all on average. There's slacker MOs just like there are slacker SWO Divos. And it goes the other way, as well.

I don't think that the SWOs don't work hard. I think they work much harder than they need to at times, but what I'm getting at is that it seems aviator Divos can multitask their responsibilities better than SWO Divos, which can, but not always, result in more direct managerial involvment.

 

[highlyrandom]

"it seems aviator Divos can multitask their responsibilities better than SWO Divos, which can, but not always, result in more direct managerial involvment"

Sorry, that's actually what I was driving at, but it was late and I was tired. Since I'm only an SNA, I'd just like to think that if I put in the same effort to learning a whole new medium (air vs. water) into trying to get SWO qual'd and manage a division, I could be a decent JO...after all, the basics should be there especially after a firstie cruise and two whole years of nav including celestial nav and shiphandling at the boat school.

Whereas now, I'm learning things that have nothing to do with Admiral Homoto, my happy Japanese navigator, and therefore focus all effort on learning.

What I was really driving at was that the responsibility level, even though the crew is smaller, is similar to OOD when you are any kind of aircraft commander...it may be just you and a few other guys (be they bridge watchstanders or aircrew) but you are responsible for keeping US property out of ChiCom airspace/waters and getting things done safely.

 

[highlyrandom]

Or, in short...if you pulled me off the flight schedule and told me that everyone qualified to drive the ship was too hung over from last night at the Big Challenge Exciting Zone in Sasebo, I could take the conn and not screw up too badly...
but the opposite situation for a SWO would rarely be true (hey TAO, can you fly a -60B? There's a rogue Russkie shooting at us and the aircrew all ate the box lunches, and we need buoys in the water...)

Of course, if you told me tomorrow I had a division to lead, well "oh sheeit" then.

 

[zab1001]

So the questions are:

Are officers in the Navy right now of such low quality that we need this program?

Will this "OCS thing" correct the problem?

Considering the cost, would it be worth it?

Can the Navy afford the time/cost?

Just some questions to feed the discussion (which I find pretty interesting).

 

[Flash]

I have to agree fully, Steve. Leadership ability usually varies with the individual regardless of program, but the OCS grads stand out considerably in the military related areas such as uniforms, customs and courtesies, ability to wake before noon, etc..
Good post.

I saw a lot of this attitude when I first got into flight school, the OCS guys were all gung ho and thought the others were slackers. I graduated ROTC but I went to a 4 year military school that was a lot more pain than 90 days of Marines (yes, we even had a few Marines at my school). The newness of it all is fascinating to the OCS grads but to an Academy or ROTC grad, it is the same old bs. In my shore tour now, you couldn't tell an OCS grad from any other comissioning source. Once you have more than flight school nder your belt, you will see what I mean. Plus, aren't we all on the same side?

 

[Flash]

Unless one of them keeps knocking that ring on the bar ....

Very few Academy 'ring knockers' any more. I rarely see anyone below an O-5 wearing one regularly, no one under O-5 wearing it on their left hand.

 

[Flash]

Oh, and as a half-assed rebuttal: what's the responsibility difference between the PPC of an EP-3 and a DivO on your average destroyer? I thought we were all just "mariners of the sky". Arr.

I am splitting hairs again but an EP-3 Aircraft Commander is an EWAC, being called a PPC is tauntomount to an insult......VP...shiver.... yech (as Zab says 'I keed')

 

[USN99]

I think it’s pretty safe to say that it would be difficult for all of us to discern what an individual officer’s commissioning source is, 3 weeks after the fact or even 3 years later. Why? Because in my opinion, they all produce good, excellent, outstanding, lousy, and sh!tty officers. All of them, the Naval Academy especially included. For all that it’s cracked up to be, the quality of officers “earning” their commission via the Academy is not consistent. ... provide a common experience for Naval Officers they currently don’t have.

Sending a bunch of officers or even prospective officers to 250+ different ships does nothing to provide an experience similar for all officers.


This is part of the reason. However, each ROTC unit runs their program in the manner they see fit. ROTC is a great conductor of Navy and Marine Corps academic knowledge. But they are a poor testing bed for who is “worthy” of a commission and who is not.


I see no problem with this as long as they all go to the same place/location (sounds like OCS to me). However, sending them to 250+ different ships is not the answer. My job as a DH on a ship is not to train/screen prospective Naval Officers, nor is it my Div Officers’ job. Sending Midshipmen or Officer Candidates to already overburdened ships for training is definitely not the answer. And even if it was, you will end up with 250+ different training programs. Our priority as a sea going, combat ready ship IS NOT to train Midshipmen/Officer Candidates.


I like this line of thinking. To me, it means that a Mid/OC must prove themselves on that 1/C cruise in order to be commissioned. However, I still believe the 1/C cruise should be at OCS and their initial follow on training should mirror TBS in that all Naval Officers are mariners.

Review and Comment on Mr. Wilkins' abridged remarks:

- Concur. The three major sources of Ensigns produce all five types listed above.

- A common experience has value. I assert it does not take 48 months or a full 1000 mids in one place to achieve it.

- A standardized NROTC Naval Science curriculum is affordable and achievable.

- NROTC CO/XO/MOIs can impose quality standards if 1) they desire; and 2) CNET does not interfere with quota or production demands. It's not rocket science.

 

[phrogpilot73]

If the bar is set higher in order to earn a commission, what I mention above is entirely possible. I say “earn” because that’s exactly what the process should entail. Currently, our only requirement to “earn” gold bars is to survive whatever commissioning program we are in. NROTC is not difficult, and it is spread over the course of 2 to 4 years. Making OCS (as it is currently administered) mandatory for all prospective officers would be a step in the right direction. However, I do believe it should be modeled after the Marine Corps version, if not outright consolidation of the two altogether. This is not to denigrate the many years of effort already required for some folks to get commissioned in the Navy. Its meaning would lie in the belief that all officers, Navy and Marine Corps alike, should prove themselves through a focused and intense training program that they are ready for the responsibility of leaders of Sailors or Marines.

I agree wholeheartedly! It seems to me that if Navy OCS were to focus on being a NAVAL Officer first and foremost (i.e. - the backbone of the Navy is Surface Warfare, and by the way - I hate the term "shoe". My Dad and Brother-in-Law are both DAMN proud "shoes"), then perhaps the quality of product would be better in the long run. Make candidates go through short cruises on YPs, etc... I went to the boat school, and I got the general feeling in flight school that I knew more about the actual Navy then half of the OCS Ensigns. That's not to say I didn't know some great ones.

And, I no longer have a ring to knock against the bar. It was stolen in P-Cola. I never wore it anyway (unless it was a special occasion). The best compliment I receive (quite often) is - "I never would have thought you were an Academy grad." Busting some stereotypes...

 

[Steve Wilkins]

Or, in short...if you pulled me off the flight schedule and told me that everyone qualified to drive the ship was too hung over from last night at the Big Challenge Exciting Zone in Sasebo, I could take the conn and not screw up too badly...

I would pay good money to watch that evolution.

 

[phrogpilot73]

Very few Academy 'ring knockers' any more. I rarely see anyone below an O-5 wearing one regularly, no one under O-5 wearing it on their left hand.

I agree with the first part, however when I did have one, and I did wear it - I wore it on my left hand. Why? Becuase that's where my Dad (class of '63) wore it until he got married - and I'm single.

 

[phrogpilot73]

Or, in short...if you pulled me off the flight schedule and told me that everyone qualified to drive the ship was too hung over from last night at the Big Challenge Exciting Zone in Sasebo, I could take the conn and not screw up too badly...
but the opposite situation for a SWO would rarely be true (hey TAO, can you fly a -60B? There's a rogue Russkie shooting at us and the aircrew all ate the box lunches, and we need buoys in the water...)

Of course, if you told me tomorrow I had a division to lead, well "oh sheeit" then.

I disagree, after "4 years together by the bay" with my classmates, I realize that comparing my time at the boat school (and the ability to take the conn of a no-sh!t real US Navy Warship) is similar to having mastered the TH-57, and saying I could fly the CH-46E. Yes, the basics are there but the refinement is not.

 

[Flash]

Just from personal experience here (again limited to the last two months) I can definitely tell the difference between the OCS officers and all the others. Not raggin on anyone specifically just saying what I see. Then again I have also been witness to several AF academy guys who are worse by far than any of the Navy guys.

I think the idea has some merit though, what type of general training could be done to create a shared base of knowledge, that is what I gather we are talking about here a basic skill set for all Navy officers?

I noticed you are still in API. Remember people, API IS NOT THE REAL NAVY, no matter what the guys behind the desk might think. BTW, just because someone wears 6 shirt stays and irons their uniform every night does nto make a good officer no matter what the Marines might think (again, I keed). You have to wear 4 shirt stays, at least that is what everyine in the fleet wears, I swear!! (dude, it was in the latest gouge!)