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OCS type training for all Naval Officers?
- Thread starter Steve Wilkins
- Start date
i'm still not seeing the issue here... if noone can tell one's commissioning source (and noone cares) why is everyone saying OCS for everyone is a good thing.
If that's not the issue... and this thread is more about 'TBS' like program for ALL naval officers then we should make it such. Just what exactly would such a program entail? Like USN99 said.. i think modifying the summer cruises would be a good idea. OCS types don't even get summer cruises... maybe they should. What exactly would you want to teach? Leadership? SWO skills? Isn't that what you're supposed to get exposure to during your 4 years of NROTC/Academy? And since we're putting TBS in such high regard... what exactly goes on during TBS that produces a model marine officer? How could that be incorporated in a naval environment?
If that's not the issue... and this thread is more about 'TBS' like program for ALL naval officers then we should make it such. Just what exactly would such a program entail? Like USN99 said.. i think modifying the summer cruises would be a good idea. OCS types don't even get summer cruises... maybe they should. What exactly would you want to teach? Leadership? SWO skills? Isn't that what you're supposed to get exposure to during your 4 years of NROTC/Academy? And since we're putting TBS in such high regard... what exactly goes on during TBS that produces a model marine officer? How could that be incorporated in a naval environment?
Crowbar said:
As i said above, it was more of a thought that would go through my mind.
Now what would you do if someone said to you that TBS produced bad officers. I dont know what you have seen at other units or what you have heard but I have spent the last two plus years going on three busting my bal*s to become the best future officer i could possibly be. I have taken two naval science course a semester to catch up and have done over 18 credits a semester every semester to graduate on time. Im even a college programmer so Im doing this with no extra money (yeah, small stipend but does very little) becuase i am so motivated to become a United States Naval Officer. I know that taken classes dont prove how good a officer I will be and i cant explain how i was a good leader to the midshipmen in my unit on a forum. NOW, as i said a couple of post ago, if someone came up to me and being very serious said to me that i didnt earn my commissioning, he can go to he** because of my dedication to my rotc unit, my schooling, my future job in the navy, and my country, he/she knows nothing of what i have done to get to where i am today. I know what i said above and knowing me, it would just go through my mind but still, I honeslty dont know how i would act so dont say that thought or some type of action would be "an endearing quality not found in most officers"
I agree with you vsoJ. What i said above was implying that a person came up to me and said that nrotc produced me, a lousy officer who didnt deserve (earn) his commissioning.
If a person did say in general that nrotc produced lousy officers, I would want to hear his view and try to prove to him that he was wrong.
If a person did say in general that nrotc produced lousy officers, I would want to hear his view and try to prove to him that he was wrong.
mules83 said:
Nice grammar. Is that Ebonics? I'm sure that's "an endearing quality not found in most officers"
Some ROTC programs are good, and some don't do jack sh!t. Only you can know if your program gave you what you needed. I personally think ROTC could be tougher, but most guys I know do just fine out of ROTC.
well I have read your posts and you seem smarter and more reasoned than that.
Ahhh, you are making me blush.....
Granted and I look forward to it but as I said before I was basing my judgement of those I know on professionalism, knowledge of their intended MOS, and so forth
I saw a list of the scariest things said by Navy guys, one of them was a Cheif saying "Watch this..." and another was an Ensign saying "In my expereince....."
I never claimed to see thousands of officers doing these things are even to have decades of experience, all I said is what I saw on the basis that a common "basic" level of training for all Naval Officers would be beneficial to polish some of the rough edges displayed by new officers from some sources. Does that make me prejudiced? Maybe it does, I don't know. I do know however that officers (regardless of source) are supposed to be leaders and set the example for those lower in grade then they are and polishing up some rough edges by a common school might do that. Again just my thoughts as someone in a position to see this need everyday.
Legitimate points, but the bolded part undercuts your argument a little bit. Why? Well, while you are a commisioned officer and certainly have some good arguments about why all Officers in the Navy might need a TBS-type training and I know that you have repeatedly pointed out you are speaking from a position of little actual expereince, when you start citing your experience in API as your basis, that does not give you a very deep pool of knowledge to draw from to make that kind of argument.
I agree 100% that it doesn't mean anything where you came from, the only thing that matters is performance. I don't think however that I made very 'sweeping' statements when I clarified that there are MANY exceptions to what I said. I would caution however that to discount the thoughts of someone based solely on their time in (which is not less than a year afterall) as blanketly unhelpful sounds somewhat prejudiced itself. It may not carry much weight but to discount it entirely...
Other than that I have been down here other than API for about a month and a half that I have been able to observe a lot about how they perform in general.
Just from personal experience here (again limited to the last two months) I can definitely tell the difference between the OCS officers and all the others. Not raggin on anyone specifically just saying what I see. Then again I have also been witness to several AF academy guys who are worse by far than any of the Navy guys.
Sure I am prejudiced against new O's a little bit, especially when some FNG shows up to a squadron and tells me what is wrong with the squadron, the Navy and sometimes me :icon_rage ....You do not appear to be one of those types, but when you argue for a radical change in the way the Navy trains officers based on your experience in API, even with your disclaimers you begin to sound like one.
I certainly don't discount your views, I like the debates that go on here and most peoples views are valuable (except Integer), including yours. What I was trying to get across to you and others who made the comments about OCS vs. Academy/NROTC grads is that you come across sounding a little too big for your own britches, at least from my point of view. I like the fact that we have a breadth of experince on the board and I like hearing about the goings on in Flight School, it brings back happy memories
. Just trying to pass on some friendly advice..... :icon_smil
Ahhh, you are making me blush.....
Granted and I look forward to it but as I said before I was basing my judgement of those I know on professionalism, knowledge of their intended MOS, and so forth
I saw a list of the scariest things said by Navy guys, one of them was a Cheif saying "Watch this..." and another was an Ensign saying "In my expereince....."
I never claimed to see thousands of officers doing these things are even to have decades of experience, all I said is what I saw on the basis that a common "basic" level of training for all Naval Officers would be beneficial to polish some of the rough edges displayed by new officers from some sources. Does that make me prejudiced? Maybe it does, I don't know. I do know however that officers (regardless of source) are supposed to be leaders and set the example for those lower in grade then they are and polishing up some rough edges by a common school might do that. Again just my thoughts as someone in a position to see this need everyday.
Legitimate points, but the bolded part undercuts your argument a little bit. Why? Well, while you are a commisioned officer and certainly have some good arguments about why all Officers in the Navy might need a TBS-type training and I know that you have repeatedly pointed out you are speaking from a position of little actual expereince, when you start citing your experience in API as your basis, that does not give you a very deep pool of knowledge to draw from to make that kind of argument.
I agree 100% that it doesn't mean anything where you came from, the only thing that matters is performance. I don't think however that I made very 'sweeping' statements when I clarified that there are MANY exceptions to what I said. I would caution however that to discount the thoughts of someone based solely on their time in (which is not less than a year afterall) as blanketly unhelpful sounds somewhat prejudiced itself. It may not carry much weight but to discount it entirely...
Other than that I have been down here other than API for about a month and a half that I have been able to observe a lot about how they perform in general.
Just from personal experience here (again limited to the last two months) I can definitely tell the difference between the OCS officers and all the others. Not raggin on anyone specifically just saying what I see. Then again I have also been witness to several AF academy guys who are worse by far than any of the Navy guys.
Sure I am prejudiced against new O's a little bit, especially when some FNG shows up to a squadron and tells me what is wrong with the squadron, the Navy and sometimes me :icon_rage ....You do not appear to be one of those types, but when you argue for a radical change in the way the Navy trains officers based on your experience in API, even with your disclaimers you begin to sound like one.
I certainly don't discount your views, I like the debates that go on here and most peoples views are valuable (except Integer), including yours. What I was trying to get across to you and others who made the comments about OCS vs. Academy/NROTC grads is that you come across sounding a little too big for your own britches, at least from my point of view. I like the fact that we have a breadth of experince on the board and I like hearing about the goings on in Flight School, it brings back happy memories
. Just trying to pass on some friendly advice..... :icon_smil
Steve Wilkins said:
Therefore I will not talk about Marines! I think they it right. :icon_smil
I attended a retirement dinner at the Army/Navy Club in Washington in January 2005. A shipmate, Vice Admiral retired. He was my Ensign DivO years ago. The subject of officer training became the topic of conversation, initially, but digressed to a near food fight. A Congressman in attendance, put for the notion of a Purple Suit Academy, replacing Annapplis, West Point and Colorado Springs. We left in agreement that it was possible to combine academies at Annapolis, Kings Point and New London into one academy at Annapolis. Lot of shouting at that table that night. :icon_rage
My hypothesis is as follows: Last class of USNA mids will be the 2009 class. Last class for NROTC, as we know it, will be 2009 Class. Trek of OCS from Pensacola to Rhode Island will be cancelled. In 2006 OCS will be reconstituted at the USNA Yard. OCS, six months in duration, two classes each year. Theoretical maximum output would be on the order or 8,500 officers per year. More than sufficient to fill the current requirement of about 3,000 per year. OCS will begin the summer of 2006, as the class of 2006 graduates thereby freeing necessary space and etc. for the incomming OCS class. Current costs to graduate a midshipman from USNA is about $280,000 for the four years at the yard. Back of envelope calculations estimate the new OCS structure will result in a cost of about $50,000 per graduate. Infastructure is in place, knowhow is there, little costs to implement.
This hypothesis is based on the combined think/speak of the forum that being a USNA graduate brings nothing "extra" to the table, in fact some sources produce better officers. Variations in NROTC programs is well recognized and an inverse relationship seems to exist between cost and quality, for which I have no factual basis for which to make such a claim.
Input into OCS would be at the start of sophmore year in college, or, later, specifics determined in the devil of the details.
Future issue of Navy Post Graduate School could also be addressed. Space would be vacated as capacity exceeds input, i.e., 8,500/3000. Natural to bring in this school? Synergy? Maybe.
I speaketh as a tax payer.
Defense Shield UP!
Certainly interesting. Damned unlikely, but interesting.The Chief said:Input into OCS would be at the start of sophmore year in college, or, later, specifics determined in the devil of the details.
Future issue of Navy Post Graduate School could also be addressed. Space would be vacated as capacity exceeds input, i.e., 8,500/3000. Natural to bring in this school? Synergy? Maybe.
I speaketh as a tax payer.
Defense Shield UP!
Brett
What is the benefit of any of this? Guys who don't talk in class at API? Or are we convinced that Marine Officers out there are better Officers than we are?
I'm not convinced.
What's the goal in all of this? What problerm needs fixing? Why do I want to learn to be a SWO and an aviator?
I just don't see the benefit.
I'm not convinced.
What's the goal in all of this? What problerm needs fixing? Why do I want to learn to be a SWO and an aviator?
I just don't see the benefit.
I think part of Steve's original point was that perhaps we need to build a better officer training program not to produce "better officers" but officers with more skills that more traditionally relate to our naval service. I, however, think that an aviator's time to do that is our disassociated sea tour, which most of us are forced to do. While all disassociated tours are not the same, it atleast gives aviators a chance to see the "SWO" side of the Navy.
However, in modern naval warfare, taking the fight to the enemy is totally different than it is in land warfare. The very concept of how we fight battles at sea, means that many of our Sailors are removed from the life and death split second decisions that a Marine private might face. (I know there are exceptions to this, but I am talking about the main Navy at sea) So as a result we end up leading our Sailors differently.
In fact the way our JO's are utilized are completely different. How high up the combat chain is a SWO JO? How often/long does a first tour SWO ENS have weapons release authority before the old man is in CIC? In helo aviation when does a JO get to make the final combat decision? When he/she is atleast a HAC. Even in single seat stiff wings, the nugget JO has a section lead.
Now compare this to a Marine 2lt. When they show up to their first unit, they are Platoon Commanders. Yes, they command their unit. Sure they have some salty E-dog with centuries of experience to support him, but in the end the decisions and results are his own.
However, in modern naval warfare, taking the fight to the enemy is totally different than it is in land warfare. The very concept of how we fight battles at sea, means that many of our Sailors are removed from the life and death split second decisions that a Marine private might face. (I know there are exceptions to this, but I am talking about the main Navy at sea) So as a result we end up leading our Sailors differently.
In fact the way our JO's are utilized are completely different. How high up the combat chain is a SWO JO? How often/long does a first tour SWO ENS have weapons release authority before the old man is in CIC? In helo aviation when does a JO get to make the final combat decision? When he/she is atleast a HAC. Even in single seat stiff wings, the nugget JO has a section lead.
Now compare this to a Marine 2lt. When they show up to their first unit, they are Platoon Commanders. Yes, they command their unit. Sure they have some salty E-dog with centuries of experience to support him, but in the end the decisions and results are his own.
VarmintShooter said:
Primarily focus of my interest is based on overall cost. I believe the consensus, even those from "Canoe U", is that there is inconsistency in the ouput from various commissioning sources, that 13 weeks of OCS produced results very similar to 4 years in NROTC/USNA. If I mis-read that, excuse me.