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Nuclear Weapons - REPORTEDLY - found in Iraq

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Anyone remember Saddam's son, who came forward and spilled his guts about Iraq's nuclear development? Then he went back to Iraq and got beheaded, anyone remember that? Iraq had nuclear weapons and biological weapons, but it's not like this war just crept up on them. Saddam sold the whole shebang abroad, which is what any other nation would do (even Saddam isn't dumb enough to use the weapons). However, b/c of our presence in Iraq we can monitor and respond to Syria and Iran, and we have a strong presence in S. Korea, so we can watch N. Korea. We know those countries are actively developing/producing the weapons, but now we can contain their efforts, keep them under closer surveillence, and, if need-be, attack before the weapons are lost on the black market (unlike Iraq).

Face it, we needed a stronghold in the Middle East from where we could keep a strong presence and actively monitor the entire region, and Iraq was the perfect enemy. The people were brutally oppressed and the coutry was a threat to the entire region, if not the world (with Iraq's resources there is no reason why it shouldn't be one of the richest countries in the world, yet under Saddam's leadership an estimated 1 million Iraqis have died due to war and oppression*). Sure we had bases in Qatar, the Emirites, and Saudi Arabia, but the host nations limited our abilities to gather intelligence.

*http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/830317/posts
 

Punk

Sky Pig Wrangler
pilot
El Cid said:
Point One: The war in Iraq wasn't fought just because there were thoughts of WMD. He had them and used them on the Kurds in the North circa 1989.

Point Two: The intel was bad not just from the Bush years but back to Bush Sr. Even Clinton authorized force against Iraq numerous times for violations of UN mandates. Bush Sr. had bad intel on Iraq? Yeah, the first Gulf War was a shamble. God knows we didn't hit all of his C&C bunkers and completely destroyed his ability to stage a counter-attack. Not only that, but we were able to go after MOBILE Scud launchers. We were moderately succesful in that. And recon platforms have made great leaps since '91.

Point Three: There maybe no direct tie between Sadam and his bathists and AQ but with his open consent for terrorist actions against the US it makes him just as guilty. By the way when you pay the families of homicide bombers that kill US citizens and their allies you forfiet your "right" to the benefit of the doubt. Oh, and the whole Iran issue... that puppet gov't couldn't be any more linked to AQ and the Bathists

Point Four: As far as facts go NK does NOT have nukes, Iran and NK both want them. The difference between Iran/Iraq and NK is that the muslim countries have used their WMD and NK is just a failing communist country that wants more aid before it fizzles out ( thanks to Clinton and his botched "no nukes" for food program).

So if you are going to attempt to be definative... brush up on your history.

Point 1: so if it wasn't for WMD's, then what was it? We knew he had chemical weapons because WE GAVE THEM to him in the 80's

Point 2: "Even Clinton authorized force against Iraq numerous times for violations of UN mandates." violations of UN mandates, I don't know how you involved intelligence in that. Those involved him turning on SAM radars (real easy to find with RWR) which he moved into the no-fly zone and pointed them at our planes. We then shot back and took them out. We only went after the weapons emplacements we knew about. So how was that bad intelligence?

or are you talking about him kicking out the UN weapons inspectors? phew, real tough intel there, the inspectors aren't in Iraq anymore. I guess he kicked them out.

Point 3: well hell, lets invade every country that even talks about their slightest dislike for the US or its policies. The Iranian puppet gov't? Who are they puppets to exactly?

Point 4: Like Acoustix said, they have operating breeder reactors which have been running for around a year. Those make weapons grade material. Google what a breeder reactor is. And if you think that because NK is failing, that they won't use nukes? You've got to be kidding me. The worse off they get, the more desperate they become and the more likely they are to use what they got. Remember those medium-range ballistic missiles they were shooting over the island of Japan? And it sure as hell doesn't take a rocket scientist to make a rocket to carry a nuclear warhead and send it over the DMZ south. Hell, the Nazis were launching the V-2 that far back in WWII.
 

Banjo33

AV-8 Type
pilot
Point 1: Because he was refusing to obey UN mandates (trading oil for weapons, firing on US aircraft in the no-fly zone, refusing weapons inspectors unlimited access, killing and kidnapping with total disregard to human rights, supporting terrorism (Palestinian suicide bombers AND his own personal terror network within his country)etc...is it really that necessary that I go on? Sounds like plenty of reason right there!). We knew he had weapons of mass destruction because he USED them before, and failed to account for ANY of them to the UN during the inspections! Who freakin cares where he got them when he did? It was a different world then, as it is now.

Point 3: It wasn't one single reason that we went into Iraq this second time around. It was the compilation of all the reasons named/unnamed.

Point 4: Something had to happen in the Middle East. It's the epicenter of Islamic Extremism. We knew Saddam needed to be taken down, we had enough reason to warrant an invasion, and it's located smack dab in the center. If we could go in there, set up a democratic government that was interested in educating its people properly and allowing them to benefit from their oil, the other neighborhing countries would be forced to follow Iraq's example. In a hundred years or so, there may be a chance for stability. Korea, on the other hand, the American public (not to mention the world) isn't prepared to support a war of that magnitude. The loss of life would be tremendous! And it would be unavoidable. Bush is trying to solve this one through diplomacy, not to mention N.Korea's history of posturing. If you remember, we gave Saddam PLENTY of opportunity to come clean....what, 11 years or so? N.Korea's nuke program isn't even that old, is it? We're talking levels of threat here. WMD's vs. nuclear weapons. Nuclear weapons are probably most dangerous in regards to destruction and total loss of life. But, WMD's are more dangerous in regards to transportability, ease of use, and undetectability until exposure. Now you have to look at who is more likely to use which? N. Korea invaded S. Korea, but a truce was signed and each country has remained on his side of the line for the last 40 years (aside from aggressive posturing and the occasional spy sub washing up on shore). Saddam on the other hand had invaded two different countries AND used his chemical weapons....against his OWN people! Therefore, he's the most dangerous of the two leaders and he needs to be taken down first.

Of course it's not all that simple, but at our level it doesn't need to be any more difficult to understand. It's easy to Monday morning quarterback this with the information we have access to, but their (the governmental decision makers) decisions actually effect lives...ours (you and I) don't.
 

Punk

Sky Pig Wrangler
pilot
Point 1: Almost the entire Middle East supports the Palestinian suicide bombers, not just Iraq. Israel is the biggest distablizing problem in the area, not Iraq, Syria, Iran, etc. But that's for another time. Saddam's own personal terror network inside the country had no effect on us. That was only there for one reason, to instill fear into the people of his own country so he could remain in power. They had nothing to do with AQ or 9/11. He was firing on our planes back in '98? I believe. We quickly and decisively dealt with that. Ever since then, sure a radar will pop up ever now and then. But is a new SA-6 that pops up every month in the no-fly and then is summarily dispatched with a HARM any real reason to invade? Saddam has used chemical weapons in the past, we all know that. But did we invade in '89 after he gased the Kurds? Nope. Or how did we feel when he used gas on Iran during the Iran/Iraq War? Especially since those were some of the weapons we gave him.

Let's talk about the weapon's inspection program real quick. We were damn sure Saddam had some chem/bio weapons during Desert Storm. He never used them. And the caches we found, we destroyed. But now lets look at Iraq and the area after the war. Iraq's military is all but destroyed. Their infrastructure is all but destroyed. Saddam has got a problem. Iran still hates Iraq. The weapon's inspectors come and Saddam jerks them around for years and acts like he still has chemical weapons. That was his plan. Now Iran isn't sure whether or not Saddam has got any more chemical weapons. The Kurds to the north aren't gonna try anything cause they don't want to get gased again and like Iran, they don't know. Saddam wanted everyone to think he still had chemical weapons. That still gave him power. Of course he was never gonna admit he had very few left. Even Hans Blix himself said over those 11 years, they had never found any signs of a running WMD program. Saddam was bluffing and everyone fell for it. Reconaissance since '91 has made huge leaps forward. And over all these years, with Keyhole satellites, UAV's, overflights, etc, photographing the entire country over and over and over again, we never found anything.

Point 3: well that still stands. While I agree anyone who supports terrorism should be dealt with harshly, a full scale invasion every time is gonna get costly. And I still want to know who the Iranian "puppet" gov't is puppets to exactly.

Point 4: I wouldn't call Iraq the center of Islamic extremism. I think that award goes to Iran, Saudi, or Syria.

Are you really naive enough to believe that if we set up a democratic gov't in Iraq that the rest of the region will follow? Because, you know, that has worked so well in the other areas we've tried to do that in before. It's simple, the middle east doesn't want a democracy. And they really don't enjoy a dictatorship either. They want to follow their religious leaders. They've been doing it for thousands of years and we surely are not gonna change that in a few years. I agree that with Saddam in power, the chance of stability was in question. But its even more unstable now than it was then. Unfortunately, that's the byproduct of a regime change.

There is no truce on the Korean Peninsula. It was a cease-fire. Yet still, troops on both sides die every week from exchanges. Technically, the Korean War is still on going. And you're right, the loss of life in an invasion would be staggering. Like you, a chem/bio weapon scares me more than a nuke. However, you just can't shrug off their nuke program. The main reason they're using one is, once again, for power. Not only that, but NK is in dire need of some money. So, selling of nuclear material wouldn't be a bad way to get some money. To quote a movie, "I'm not afraid of the man who wants nuclear weapons, I'm terrified of the man who only wants one." One of the selling points in Iraq was that Saddam had chem/bio weapons and was distributing them throughout the terror networks. Don't you think NK is gonna so the same thing once they have 3 or 4 warheads of their own? According to your logic of before, this is more than enough reason to invade. And it would probably be a good idea to perform such an invasion before they fully develop those warheads. But dont' read this the wrong way, in no terms am I advocating invading NK. That just wouldn't be the brightest idea. And don't for one minute believe that Bush is gonna talk NK out of their one and only bargaining chip.

Of course it's not all that simple, but at our level it doesn't need to be any more difficult to understand.

I disagree with this. You're right, it's not that simple. But why shouldn't we understand? Because we might not like the answer? We are all college educated. And we are the operators. For that reason alone I feel we should have a very good understanding of our motives. Let's not forget, our gov't has done some very very very shady things in the past. But I'm not saying I woudn't do my job if I didn't agree with it. You want a target taken out in Iraq, roger that, give me the coordinates and bombs away. But to not understand the reasons for going to war is completely and utterly foolish. Afterall, we are all citizens. We still vote. And what we vote for will have a direct impact on us, cause once again we are the operators of that policy. It would be morally reprehensible for us not to understand those policies. But in the end, we still do our job.
 

Punk

Sky Pig Wrangler
pilot
Another quick thing, lets look at our track recond in the Middle East. Hey Iran is our friends, lets sell them a bunch of our top of the line fighters (F-14's). Aw crap, regime change, they our enemy now. Well, Iraq doesn't like Iran. Let's help him out. What's his name, Saddam something. Anywho, lets help him beat the Iranians. Phew, he did a good job. Aw crap, now what, he invades his neighbor. Guess he's not a our friend. Hey Saudi, do you mind if we help you out and base our forces so we can beat Saddam. Yes? Great. You're our friends now.
 

Acoustix99

Registered User
pilot
It's also been shown that a lot of Iran's knowledge of how to create nuclear weapons has come from North Korean scientists, who have been selling these ideas, along with who knows what else, on the international market. Sounds like thye root of a big problem right there....
 

Fly Navy

...Great Job!
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
Punk said:
Hey Saudi, do you mind if we help you out and base our forces so we can beat Saddam. Yes? Great. You're our friends now.

Oh, what's that Saudi? You actually hate our guts and want us destroyed, but you love our money so much you're going to pretend to be our friend, while supporting our enemies behind our back? That's cool, no problem.

Figured I'd throw that in there. ;)
 

Fly Navy

...Great Job!
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
Punk said:
Point 1: Almost the entire Middle East supports the Palestinian suicide bombers, not just Iraq. Israel is the biggest distablizing problem in the area, not Iraq, Syria, Iran, etc. But that's for another time.

Yet none of them want the Palestinians in their country, I wonder why? They support them because they kill Jews, yet they won't let them stay in their own country's. Makes you go hmmmm. Palestinians = bastard children of the Middle East.

Let's talk about the weapon's inspection program real quick. We were damn sure Saddam had some chem/bio weapons during Desert Storm. He never used them. And the caches we found, we destroyed. But now lets look at Iraq and the area after the war. Iraq's military is all but destroyed. Their infrastructure is all but destroyed. Saddam has got a problem. Iran still hates Iraq. The weapon's inspectors come and Saddam jerks them around for years and acts like he still has chemical weapons. That was his plan. Now Iran isn't sure whether or not Saddam has got any more chemical weapons. The Kurds to the north aren't gonna try anything cause they don't want to get gased again and like Iran, they don't know. Saddam wanted everyone to think he still had chemical weapons. That still gave him power. Of course he was never gonna admit he had very few left. Even Hans Blix himself said over those 11 years, they had never found any signs of a running WMD program. Saddam was bluffing and everyone fell for it. Reconaissance since '91 has made huge leaps forward. And over all these years, with Keyhole satellites, UAV's, overflights, etc, photographing the entire country over and over and over again, we never found anything.

That's a pretty good argument. But it's flawed. Ever notice that everytime we got possibly close to finding something, he'd stall us, throw us out, etc. He could have been duping us, like you said, and that's very possible. Or he knew that the UN has absolutely no balls, nor did Hans Blix, and wouldn't do a damn thing if he kept harassing the inspectors. The UN is a debate society, and the world, especially Saddam, knows this. Personally, I don't think you can say for sure which it was. Are you privy to all the intel, Punk? The recce is QUITE flawed. Pictures are great man, but NOTHING beats HUMINT. That is a major flaw with US Intelligence since the 70s when a lot of the HUMINT was dismantled because the CIA got a little ambitious and Congress got a bit hippy. Pictures show a lot, but they can't nearly do the job of HUMINT.

Point 4: I wouldn't call Iraq the center of Islamic extremism. I think that award goes to Iran, Saudi, or Syria.

I agree. Especially Saudi.

Are you really naive enough to believe that if we set up a democratic gov't in Iraq that the rest of the region will follow? Because, you know, that has worked so well in the other areas we've tried to do that in before. It's simple, the middle east doesn't want a democracy. And they really don't enjoy a dictatorship either. They want to follow their religious leaders.

Take a look around at a lot of the problems in that area of the world. Yeah, they like their religious leaders. Zeal really can whip the masses in a frenzy. However, look deeper at the problems of the Middle East. That area of the world was tribal all the way through WWI. It STILL is. Until they get rid of their tribal mentality, they're doomed.

But to not understand the reasons for going to war is completely and utterly foolish. Afterall, we are all citizens. We still vote. And what we vote for will have a direct impact on us, cause once again we are the operators of that policy. It would be morally reprehensible for us not to understand those policies. But in the end, we still do our job.

What he said.
 

Punk

Sky Pig Wrangler
pilot
That's a pretty good argument. But it's flawed. Ever notice that everytime we got possibly close to finding something, he'd stall us, throw us out, etc. He could have been duping us, like you said, and that's very possible. Or he knew that the UN has absolutely no balls, nor did Hans Blix, and wouldn't do a damn thing if he kept harassing the inspectors. The UN is a debate society, and the world, especially Saddam, knows this. Personally, I don't think you can say for sure which it was. Are you privy to all the intel, Punk? The recce is QUITE flawed. Pictures are great man, but NOTHING beats HUMINT. That is a major flaw with US Intelligence since the 70s when a lot of the HUMINT was dismantled because the CIA got a little ambitious and Congress got a bit hippy. Pictures show a lot, but they can't nearly do the job of HUMINT.

I agree with this. Nothing can replace HUMINT, nothing. Our Keyhole satellites are very very good. They look at patterns as well. Why is this one road leading to that small building so well maintained and heavily traveled? But I agree with what you are saying. Saddam is only the only one who knows what was really going on those 10 years. But just like poker, we don't know what he was holding in his hand and probably never will.

Take a look around at a lot of the problems in that area of the world. Yeah, they like their religious leaders. Zeal really can whip the masses in a frenzy. However, look deeper at the problems of the Middle East. That area of the world was tribal all the way through WWI. It STILL is. Until they get rid of their tribal mentality, they're doomed.

very true, and I honestly don't think forcing them into democracy will work. It involves too much self-thought. They are use to being told what to do, what to think, who to hate. This mentality is not gonna be changed in a few years.
 

Fly Navy

...Great Job!
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
Punk said:
I agree with this. Nothing can replace HUMINT, nothing. Our Keyhole satellites are very very good. They look at patterns as well. Why is this one road leading to that small building so well maintained and heavily traveled? But I agree with what you are saying. Saddam is only the only one who knows what was really going on those 10 years. But just like poker, we don't know what he was holding in his hand and probably never will.



very true, and I honestly don't think forcing them into democracy will work. It involves too much self-thought. They are use to being told what to do, what to think, who to hate. This mentality is not gonna be changed in a few years.

While I think Democracy should be spread, I agree, it would take a major shift in their thinking.

Punk, I think for the first time you and I are in agreement. :)
 

Punk

Sky Pig Wrangler
pilot
Fly Navy said:
While I think Democracy should be spread, I agree, it would take a major shift in their thinking.

Punk, I think for the first time you and I are in agreement. :)

scary, ain't it :eek:
 

46Driver

"It's a mother beautiful bridge, and it's gon
One of the problems with the spreading of democracy is that it does not work well with countries that have a low per capita income. There does seem to be a dividing line in that aspect. Also, without a foundation of law, people in these countries often vote purely along tribal/clan/religious ties. Perhaps the China system of economic freedom and incentive enforced by a strong central government could give the people the years needed to adjust.

As for North Korea and WMD's, don't forget that Seoul is within artillery range of North Korea. If we tried to attack them, conventional weapons would still be able to kill thousands as well as destroy much of urban South Korea.
 

El Cid

You're daisy if you do.
I think we are all boiling it down to what the real problem is: the Middle East is a$$backward but had resources we needed. The Middle East is playing 300 years of catch up in 30 years. I don't know if you guys know this but the real problem in the ME is not Militant Islamicism but jobs. Saudi is suffering a horrendous recession in their economy (no more Detroit Monsters). The unemployment rate in SA is about 18% and in Iran about 24% and about the same in the "fundamentalist" ME countries. The problem is that with new jobs comes more of a middle class and then the demand for human rights then the backlash from the ruling class (call fundamentalist Islam or white supremacy or communism). Have you noticed that all these high level terrorists are billionaires or close friends to them? If you made your money off of the backs of others would you want that low overhead to change? :confused:

As far as our past actions... sh!t happens. We acted in our own best national interests at the time. If that means doing something that isn't good for another country tough sh!t we earned our place as number one and that came from protecting Americans. In the past 40 years we all decided to take a break from sanity and attempted to hold hands across the world. WOW! What a big success that turned out to be... high crime, less parental responsibility, lower educational standards. I just want to know when people started divorcing responsibility from freedom. Freedom has never meant the ability to do whatever you want, it used to stand for something that was a journey not a goal. Freedom is the ability to pursue happiness without the fear of death within the scope of societal norms. There should be a balance that does not trample the rights of another. (enough of that soapbox) :sleep_125

Just for punk:
Iran is not a puppet gov't led by another gov’t; I didn't mean to imply that. What I meant by it was that the "gov't" of Iran is little more than a puppet of the Iranian elitist that use fundamental Islam as a tool of maintaining a tyranny. Pop quiz... what country has the highest prostitution rate per capita in the world... <<BUZZ>> the answer is Iran. So if the FI gov't is supposed to be the end all be all why do they have such horrible social problems? <<BUZZ>> Because they're really a fascist dictatorship that bends to the will of the ruling clergy class. Not unlike France/Spain/England and the Catholic church of the "dark ages" except we didn't have CNN back then to analyze everything they did.:icon_hamm

For everyone:
NK and Iran do not have Nuclear Weapons. Yes they have nuclear facilities but do not have the technology. It’s like having an orange tree in your back yard. Just because you have oranges, do you have Grand Marnier? Sure I could crudely mash it into OJ but to get Grand Marnier you have to know how to refine it. ;)

As far as forcing a democracy… yeah that whole rebuild Germany and Japan thing was a real disaster. Oh and democracy in the ME would never work much less have them get along with a Jewish nation… unless you want to count Turkey!!! :eek:
 

Acoustix99

Registered User
pilot
If we had the technology to build nukes in the 1940's, I wouldn't put it past NK to have the technology. They might not have much money for their people, but they do spend between 70 and 80% of their GDP on their military and military technology, especially development of missiles.......And i'll bet their "warhead" budget is pretty sizable. Their scientists aren't dumb, and the technology certainly isn't out of their grasp.
 
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