New wings approved for AMDO/Aviation LDO/CWOs

[PropAddict]

This thread is useless without a poll.

"Do you think the new wings are:"

A. Ghey

B. Super-duper fabulous

 

[MasterBates]

There is a HUGE difference in my opinion between "doing ground job/going to a month long school, doing a PQS, (and some time in job) and getting a pin" and earning your wings.

You know what my wings proved? That I, was able to safely take a Naval Aircraft, by myself (or with another student in the case of the TH-57/T-44) and do flights that are representative of what fleet aircraft do. Did I take a T-45C downtown? NO. Did I simulate parking it in a radar orbit (like I do in he E-2C) no. But I did prove I had the skills to do that when I needed to.

While I was a 1390, (or playing one for the second time) I did the following:
Flew a helicopter on a cross country
Landed a helicopter on a boat
Flew solo, in 2 and 4-ship formations
Flew solo, in a division, and landed on a CVN.

And that's just the highlight reel.

What have SWOs done? I've never seen a SWO "Solo" a CG. Hell, I don't think most of them would be trusted with a YP by themselves.

And that's far more than what the AMDOs do from a "warfighting" standpoint.

AMDO/AEDOs are needed.

They don't need wings. If they wanted wings, they should have gone the hell to flight school.

But then again, I'm an asshole.

 

[Short]

Aviation wings awarded at the completion of flight training has that whole "benefit of decades of history going back before WWII", while shoe pins and other miscellaneous tinnery have (with some exceptions) been introduced fairly very recently. We have various levels of warfare qualifications, i.e. HACs, SFWT/PWTP level 1-5, division leads, strike/sead leads ect.

Oh, and the shoe pin exists because a bunch of dudes were jealous of wings/ it was a shoe endorsed plan to improve morale without actually doing anything to make the shoe community better. I would use the little smiley emoticon here to denote sarcasm, but that would be against my religion.

 

[Steve Wilkins]

There is a HUGE difference in my opinion between "doing ground job/going to a month long school, doing a PQS, (and some time in job) and getting a pin" and earning your wings.

You know what my wings proved? That I, was able to safely take a Naval Aircraft, by myself (or with another student in the case of the TH-57/T-44) and do flights that are representative of what fleet aircraft do. Did I take a T-45C downtown? NO. Did I simulate parking it in a radar orbit (like I do in he E-2C) no. But I did prove I had the skills to do that when I needed to.

While I was a 1390, (or playing one for the second time) I did the following:
Flew a helicopter on a cross country
Landed a helicopter on a boat
Flew solo, in 2 and 4-ship formations
Flew solo, in a division, and landed on a CVN.

And that's just the highlight reel.

What have SWOs done? I've never seen a SWO "Solo" a CG. Hell, I don't think most of them would be trusted with a YP by themselves.

And that's far more than what the AMDOs do from a "warfighting" standpoint.

AMDO/AEDOs are needed.

They don't need wings. If they wanted wings, they should have gone the hell to flight school.

But then again, I'm an asshole.

So then you agree with me that wings really aren't a warfare device?

 

[MasterBates]

If you want to call it a "Warfare Device" (yeah, I know wings are in the regs as one, but I don't think they were called that when they were brought out in 1917) ..

I had received training and passed the required "Testing" in a WARFARE area before getting my wings.

Being a ground pounder, paper pusher, while needed as a SUPPORT function is not a warfighting job.

Not to sound morbid, but I've lost more friends/acquaintances in aviation mishaps, than I've ever heard of AMDOs being killed in the line of doing what their designator entails. I've always been of the thought that wings/dolphins/tridents were for those who risked their ass above and beyond what the typical Sailor/Officer did.

Again, just a jackass LT's opinion. Take it for what you want.

 

[insanebikerboy]

How is making it through flight school any different than making it through power school and prototype in terms of warfare qualification? What I'm getting at is why are you warfare qualified (emphasis being on warfare) simply because you made it through flight school? I'm looking for a logical/philosophical reason here, not "because that's what the brass says" or "that's how we've always done it".

Well, the three basic tenants of flying are aviate, navigate, communicate. Along that line of thought, after flight school every student aviator is fully capable of flying their aircraft through the full range of flight.

However, if we are talking tactical know-how, in advanced each student is introduced on how to tactically employ their aircraft. For example, helo studs do intros to vertrep/logistics, terf flying, formation, confined landings, etc. Jet studs drop blue bombs, do acm/bcm, form, etc, etc.

The point I'm making is that even though it's not the fleet platform, studs finish flight school actually have a basic, rudimentary understanding of how to use their aircraft as a tactically employed aircraft and not simply as being a well trained pilot. That's the difference, and that's why they get their wings on finishing flight school and not after the rag.

 

[Bevo16]

Dude, I think you're confusing the Global War on Terror Expeditionary Medal with the Global War on Terror Service Medal. The latter is the latest, greatest NDM. I got my GWOTEM for the opening days of OIF, flying off a boat that was in the Med, across Turkey and into Northern Iraq. Is that in the rear with the gear?

I am not confused, dude. :icon_wink

I got my GWOTEM for flying off a boat in the NAG a few years after you got yours. We (I) also flew more than a handful overland missions. While our squadron was on the ground in Iraq/Kuwait for 6+ months, we rotated our pilots and maintainers through and nobody met the "consecutive days on the ground" requirement to qualify for the campaign medal. The goal was to support the war, not qualify for medals.

Our PR's who never left the boat (much like the person who I was replying to) got the exact same medals as the people who were flying over Iraq (and they are most certainly "in the rear with the gear"). I don't feel that I should get a campaign medal for a touch and go and a few support missions. "Campaign" suggests long period in country, and the specific requirements for those awards back that up.

 

[CommodoreMid]

Well, the three basic tenants of flying are aviate, navigate, communicate. Along that line of thought, after flight school every student aviator is fully capable of flying their aircraft through the full range of flight.

However, if we are talking tactical know-how, in advanced each student is introduced on how to tactically employ their aircraft. For example, helo studs do intros to vertrep/logistics, terf flying, formation, confined landings, etc. Jet studs drop blue bombs, do acm/bcm, form, etc, etc.

The point I'm making is that even though it's not the fleet platform, studs finish flight school actually have a basic, rudimentary understanding of how to use their aircraft as a tactically employed aircraft and not simply as being a well trained pilot. That's the difference, and that's why they get their wings on finishing flight school and not after the rag.

Except for E-2/P-3 FOs. Though if you were to go back and give me my wings after my 15 instrument rides in the T-6, I wouldn't complain

 

[Lawman]

This is why the Term POG isnt nearly as effective as the term PONTI.

(Personel Of No Tactical Importance)

 

[nittany03]

If it's truly a warfare pin, then shouldn't you have that basic to intermediate knowledge?

Who says you don't? By the time I got my pilot wings, I was able to put a bomb reliably within 75-100 feet of where it needed to be. Manually. From any of three different delivery profiles, weather depending. I was conversant in the dynamics of one-circle and two-circle flow, and could somewhat competently execute basic 1v1 BFM. I was conversant in the very bare bones basics of 2v1 BFM, and could safely work with a wingman to engage a single bandit. Oh, and I landed on a carrier 10 times without breaking the jet or scaring Paddles.

Oh, did I mention I did all of this SOLO, whilst responsible for the safe operation of a 17.2 million dollar jet aircraft? Without my CO looking over my shoulder or an NFO helping? And with my flight lead powerless to take the conn if I screwed up?

When I went back to get my NFO wings, they took away the GPS/INS I enjoyed throughout my previous jet career, made me navigate to a target, and hit a real-world TOT to an accuracy of +- 30 seconds (though I could usually get it at least under 15). I did this using nothing but a chart, stopwatch, radar, and standard NAVAIDs. Then I learned how to work an air-to-air radar, and about basic air-to-air intercepts and missile timelines. Hornet guys went even further in depth on that side.

I know for a fact that Helo guys do basic NVG operations, and learn SAR and how to handle sling loads. You know, the basic stuff helo bubbas are EXPECTED TO DO.

Granted, compared to what fleet guys do, much of the above was canned and in many cases contrived in order to facilitate training. But I guess according to your definition, none of it's warfare-related, and so we can't call wings a "warfare device." Even though the Navy makes its students jump through more hoops pre-winging than the Air Force already.

You're completely out to lunch here, Steve.

 

[Short]

I'll agree that wings aren't really a warfare device if you agree that surface warfare isn't much of a warfare community (with the exception of vbss, patrol craft, riverine and spec boats). Other than that, thanks for getting the runway near enough to the fight. Shall we move on to mom jokes on this thread, or was that incendiary enough?

 

[BACONATOR]

So then you agree with me that wings really aren't a warfare device?

Not that I don't think the posts below covered how we DO train to a basic warefare knowledge during flight school, BUT, playing devil's advocate, yet again.... What about the few, albeit rare, guys who got selected to fly the heavies for reserve squadrons out of flight school. Their jobs didn't require really any sort of tactical knowledge. Did they deserve their wings?

The wings represent a basic understanding and capability to employ your aircraft for the BASIC types of mission sets you encounter as a fleet pilot. For helos, jets, P-3, E-6 and VR guys, that all means different things. And those are all things you learn during flight school. Of course the level is basic, but even the level of tactics learned at the various RAGs is basic, and variable depending on the airframe.

And as a WAREFARE device, it also implies an inherent danger (fortunately for us, WE kill ourselves a lot more than our enemy does). Nobody ever died manning the conn, except maybe for shoveling too many donuts and midrats before standing watch, or unless the ship is being attacked, in which case a LOT more people are in trouble too. Aviators and submariners (You know... the two ORIGINAL warefare devices) have a perilous history and are at serious risk every time they do their jobs.

 

[scoolbubba]

These new pins and the existing pins for the staff/support side have always had 2 roles. 1) to recognize a level of expertise within a designator and 2) Seperate the wheat from the Chafe in the tank at promotion board. Which of those 2 do you wizards think is the primary reason for these pins to exist? No worries though you guys will figure it out before you put on JG.

How many chop attrites have you ever heard of?


that's what I thought.

 

[ACowboyinTexas]

"the Chafe"?

 

[Steve Wilkins]

Not to sound morbid, but I've lost more friends/acquaintances in aviation mishaps, than I've ever heard of AMDOs being killed in the line of doing what their designator entails. I've always been of the thought that wings/dolphins/tridents were for those who risked their ass above and beyond what the typical Sailor/Officer did.

We've lost far more surface ships (and sailors aboard those ships) than through aviation and subs combined.