Mast, NJP, and The Trouble Troops Can Get In...

[MasterBates]

Writing the SDO sked is not that hard..

Have AMDO/Intel types take the non flying days/weekends first, then schedule aircrew (we have to have a Pilot/NFO be SDO when flying)

Senior CAPC/CICOs pick 1st, then 2-3P/ACO/RO.. Figure out how many need to stand times, and start again that high up in the stack.

It's the drug dealing that goes on after the watchbill that is out that becomes the issue. Not been a huge issue here, but I've only been the SWO here 2 weeks. HOWEVER, having been the SWO before, I'm sure it's just a matter of time.

 

[Flash]

Writing the SDO sked is not that hard......

All I did was have sign-up by seniority, go down the list twice and problem solved. Why do all the work when others can do it for you?

 

[MasterBates]

Well there are minor points of contention.. Like "LSOs don't stand duty.. EVER" (show me where that is written), then the various arguments of "do we go by lineal number, qual or time aboard?" (and various people from each camp arguing for each).

But it's the drug dealing after the fact that I hated to deal with in the past.

And the whole "Dave is single, make him stand weekend duty because Joe forgot about the dance recital" or people going "I can't stand duty on X day, because of Y my kids are doing" when it's the only day left and they are low man for picking, etc..

 

[Flash]

Well there are minor points of contention.. Like "LSOs don't stand duty.. EVER" (show me where that is written), then the various arguments of "do we go by lineal number, qual or time aboard?" (and various people from each camp arguing for each).

But it's the drug dealing after the fact that I hated to deal with in the past.

And the whole "Dave is single, make him stand weekend duty because Joe forgot about the dance recital" or people going "I can't stand duty on X day, because of Y my kids are doing" when it's the only day left and they are low man for picking, etc..

Jeez, what a bunch of fucking pansies. I had 'em sign up and that was it. If they wanted to switch they could do whatever between themselves and come to me after it was settled. The only whining I ever really got was when we had to do SP patrols in Iwakuni. After I did the first no one else could complain about getting screwed, so STFU and do it!

It was nice to have an XO that tolerated absolutely no bullshit though, made my life easier when someone started whining he would just stare at them until they shut up. Give the whiners a shitty duty or two, that ought to shut them up.

On the other hand, maybe it is you?

 

[Pags]

Well there are minor points of contention.. Like "LSOs don't stand duty.. EVER" (show me where that is written), then the various arguments of "do we go by lineal number, qual or time aboard?" (and various people from each camp arguing for each).

But it's the drug dealing after the fact that I hated to deal with in the past.

And the whole "Dave is single, make him stand weekend duty because Joe forgot about the dance recital" or people going "I can't stand duty on X day, because of Y my kids are doing" when it's the only day left and they are low man for picking, etc..

The best place to get watch standing policy clarified is from the XO. Whatever he wants, he gets. If it makes sense, it should go into the SORM so then it is written.

When I was the SWO, it was up to everyone else to make their own changes and let me know about them. I'd check the watch bill every so often to see if there were changes I didn't know about and then go have a chat with people about communication (the SORM said a request chit was required to switch watches. no XO had required that or approval for pen and ink changes, so I was a hard ass because I knew it would only take one fuck up to make all that come back). Every once in awhile I'd have people try and swap out all their watches with unsuspecting new guys. Everyone stood 2 watches as a new guy and none when you made FCP. People were free to switch watches as they came up, but you weren't getting out of a watch day YOU signed up for because you forgot something.

 

[phrogpilot73]

What is this "watch" you speak of?

I haven't stood duty since leaving my fleet squadron. I love the reserves...

 

[squorch2]

It's not that hard to write a program to generate a schedule given a certain set of inputs. Where things go haywire is when you have to change the inputs. Or add new styles of inputs. Or new quals. Or an entire new syllabus. (what is HSC up to now, 4 completely different syllabi in 4 years?)

In conclusion, I hate feature creep.

 

[Uncle Fester]

You're never going to get a Grand Unification Watch Theory that satisfies everybody. Never underestimate the allure of simplicity and clarity.

We had a great duty/watch signup program in place when I first checked in.

- Precedence for signup was 1) rank and 2) time in the squadron. LT's oldest to newest, then j.g.'s oldest to newest.
- Paddles didn't stand duty on the Boat or during FCLP's.
- Once a month we had an all-JOPA and went around the room until every space on the calendar was filled.
- Volunteers for "bonus days" (Christmas, NYE, holiday Mondays, etc) were excused duty for the following month. If no one volunteered, name was picked out of a helmet and the assignee was awarded no prize.
- Drug deals, gentlemen's agreements and Mob Justice were on an as-needed basis.

Boom. Period. Five rules, and it fucking worked.

Was it fair to our two pilots who were prior Chiefs? Or the lone Intel Ensign? Or fair to all the j.g.'s when ex-Shoe LT Fester checked in and immediately landed on the middle of the list? Probably not, but it was clear, simple, and predictable, and for the most part, everyone got an equal serving of shit. You had your time on the bottom, you had your time on the top.

Then we got a new SWO and went to an incredibly complex, Excel-driven system that awarded points based on rank, time in squadron, sea duty time, hours, quals, etc etc etc. The idea was to take all factors into consideration...but it was unclear, no one understood it, and there was even more wanking than under the old system. IOW, a perfect Navy solution.

 

[MasterBates]

Yeah.. I'm currently working around the "but you just checked in" screams with me being in a similar boat to Fester.

I'll stand some duty.. But I'm not going to stand more duty than a JG that just checked in a week ahead of me either.

For "seniority" I basically just use time in grade. While some guys may have been in the Navy for 18 years.. A LT that has been in 5 years is still senior to a prior Chief who is a JG.

 

[Uncle Fester]

You'll get wanking no matter how you do it, and no scheme is perfect. But the Navy Way - adding caveats, exceptions and addendums trying to create a rule covering all situations - only winds up making everyone dissatisfied, and confused to boot. Make a clear, simple system. Entertain exceptions and special-needs children case-by-case. Deal with shitbirds and non-hackers within JOPA (Mob Justice). Send persistent wankers upstream to XO, assuming you have an XO who'll back your play.

 

[Steve Wilkins]

I still like my solution. It's simple and it's clear. Yeah, I know you guys are talking about flying and my perspective is coming from a shipboard organization, but in general, everybody stands watch except the CO, XO, CMC, and any predefined special children (i.e. paddles, flying squad). Yeah, this means the Chiefs and any embarked HSL bubbas get to be a part of the party too. Individuals are in 2 section duty/watchbill until qualified and then can move into the normal duty/watch rotation.

I don't really care how senior of a JG you are, if you've been in the Navy for 18 years and stood P&S for the last 6. Duty is part of being in the Navy and the more people that contribute, the easier it is for everyone. Volunteers for holidays are first come, first serve and get you out of two duty days of your choice. If you need/want to switch duty days, go find another qualified person (O or E, I don't care), make your back room deal and then let the respective section leaders and SWO know.

 

[Boomhower]

Rank was never part of the equation for us. JOPA was JOPA to us. Time in squadron meant everything. Truth is, it isn't fair to the NFO's that don't take as long to get through flight school. Hell, I made it to VAW-113 as a damn Ensign.

1 point for every watch you stood. 1.5 points if it was on a weekend. And, I think, 2 points for a major holiday. Most points gets you to the top of the list. I usually just sucked up an entire weekend since I hated standing duty on fly days and weekend watches were easy as hell. Downside was that I was the designated driver for one weekend every month. Also, I didn't go home for Thanksgiving...ever. This moved me up the list pretty quickly.

The system worked without any problems. If you sucked up a shitload of watches on the boat (read: our AMDO) then you didn't have to stand very many on the beach. I hated watch on the boat so I would make up for it at home.

 

[Uncle Fester]

...points...

The points thing is another way to go. It can work as long as you stick to it...when we tried it, everyone started wanking about how they should really get more points for standing duty on Christmas than Columbus Day, and it's not fair that a new jg gets ahead of a senior O-3 just because the jg's got no kids, and you screwed up my points, blah blah, wah. At least there's no debating how many bars you got and what day you checked in.

The way I see it, 'fair' doesn't mean nobody gets a shitty deal, ever. We all know that's impossible and against Naval tradition anyway. 'Fair' means no one gets an unequal portion of the shit and everybody shoulders their burden of the work.

My only heartburn with non-aircrew (Intel, Maint) officers not standing duty was when they then wanted to join in the Admin ashore and otherwise participate in the JOPAcabana. Don't be too salty to sit the desk on the Boat and then run around drinking our booze in Dubai, you know? You want to play the reindeer games, you gotta help pull the fat guy in the fucking sled.

 

[phrogpilot73]

We had a similar system in place to Fester's with the exception of how we handled holidays. The calendar would go around throughout the year - and everyone had to sign up for two days. A weekday was one point, weekends two. Blank spaces were filled by lowest point holder, and holidays were either volunteer or lowest point holder. I would routinely sign up for 3 duties a month (as opposed to two that everyone else was signing up for) including 1 weekend. Because of that, I was always the leader in points and never stood Thanksgiving/Christmas/New Years.

 

[Steve Wilkins]

My only heartburn with non-aircrew (Intel, Maint) officers not standing duty was when they then wanted to join in the Admin ashore and otherwise participate in the JOPAcabana. Don't be too salty to sit the desk on the Boat and then run around drinking our booze in Dubai, you know? You want to play the reindeer games, you gotta help pull the fat guy in the fucking sled.

Well said.