marine corps vs. navy

[squeeze]

I'm going to have to take issue with this one. Though I have a great deal of respect and many friends who are aviators in the Navy our mentalities and outlooks are very different in all type model series. If by "TBS brainwashing" you mean a commitment to the Marine on the ground or a commitment to being a Marine first and a pilot second it doesnt wear off and if it does get out immediately because we dont want you. A Marine aviator is commited to that 19 year old Lance Corporal on the ground in a way that no other service is. There are Phrog guys who will and did land under fire that would turn every one else away because they are needed. There are Marine Hornet guys practice and perfect CAS much more than their Navy brethren and are the ones we want when it counts. And a lot of Cobras came back with a lot of holes in support of Marines trying to beat the Army to Bagdad.
Marine aviators go and do tours with the infantry show me a Navy pilot even willing to think about that one. I hope in my heart once you get out of the training command all this becomes apparent to you.

He's a squid...he'll never 'get it'

 

[bch]

I'm going to have to take issue with this one. Though I have a great deal of respect and many friends who are aviators in the Navy our mentalities and outlooks are very different in all type model series. If by "TBS brainwashing" you mean a commitment to the Marine on the ground or a commitment to being a Marine first and a pilot second it doesnt wear off and if it does get out immediately because we dont want you. A Marine aviator is commited to that 19 year old Lance Corporal on the ground in a way that no other service is. There are Phrog guys who will and did land under fire that would turn every one else away because they are needed. There are Marine Hornet guys practice and perfect CAS much more than their Navy brethren and are the ones we want when it counts. And a lot of Cobras came back with a lot of holes in support of Marines trying to beat the Army to Bagdad.
Marine aviators go and do tours with the infantry show me a Navy pilot even willing to think about that one. I hope in my heart once you get out of the training command all this becomes apparent to you.

Calm down man, did not mean to insult any marines out there, but generally most guys show up to API SO GUNG HO, err, hoorah ,get some , kill... (you get the point) is every word out of their mouth. As they progress, they tend to chill out just a bit, was not trying to imply that they are mindless drones, or don't think for themselves. So much so infact, that I would say that the marines are the nicer IPs to fly with as they are a lot more laid back than the Navy IP's (generally speaking).....

And BTW Squeeze is a prime example of what I am trying to convey.

 

[skidkid]

There is a change from TBS mentality to fleet but this happens everywhere as they gain experience but at no time are Marine aviators simply Navy officers with camoulfaged helmet covers.

 

[46Driver]

I would highly recommend AGAINST camofluage helmet covers. Having seen some helos go into the water at night, the last thing you want is to cover up that reflective tape. Some argue, I want to be camofluaged in the event they can see my white helmet in the cockpit but then they go and use a lip light which can be seen more for a ways - that's right, I'm here, shoot me straight in the face.

 

[skidkid]

I recommend them for a couple of reasons, on land day time the white helmet is as bad as the lip light as far as shoot me. And in the Cobra too much glare off the fron seater on gogles if he isnt wearing one

 

[phrogdriver]

The covers are fine--you can tear those off. But I've seen a lot of cobra guys go with NO tape, just a black matte helmet, which I always thought was a bad idea.

 

[Flash]

Couple questions:

1.Why drop the number of aircraft per squadron? (VF/VFA)

2.Are your VAQ/VAW numbers for squadrons or dets?

The reason I ask is I want to get a feel for what the needs might be when I get to being an NFO.

1. Because it saves money. Drop 2 jets out of every fighter squadron and you reduce the number of fighters needed in the Navy by about 70. That is a lot of money. It is also the reason that they are planning on putting a Marine Hornet squadron in every air wing instead of just the 4 they have right now. The reason again is money. The Navy and Marine Corps simply do not have enough money to replace their current inventories of fighters with the Super Hornet and the F-35.

2. VAQ and VAW squadrons only have 4 aircraft a piece.

 

[VetteMuscle427]

1. Because it saves money. Drop 2 jets out of every fighter squadron and you reduce the number of fighters needed in the Navy by about 70. That is a lot of money. It is also the reason that they are planning on putting a Marine Hornet squadron in every air wing instead of just the 4 they have right now. The reason again is money. The Navy and Marine Corps simply do not have enough money to replace their current inventories of fighters with the Super Hornet and the F-35.

2. VAQ and VAW squadrons only have 4 aircraft a piece.

That doesn't make sense to me.... maybe I'm just to narrow minded... but that cuts down your strength by like 16%.... I wouldn't be for that unless they put an extra squadron in each air wing. What is the world coming to?

 

[Flash]

have you considered helos take up 2 pilots? maybe that was an "aviator" statistic and not just pilots? I dunno.. i've heard there transitioning to a mostly helo navy.. i.e. 60-70%

I have thought of that and I wish I had the damn slide that the XO showed us. Why I still think it was a pilot only statistic is if you take a step back and look at the numbers, it makes sense. Think about it, there are about 36 operational fighter squadrons in the Navy (4 per the 10 air wings, minus 4 Marine Hornet squadorns in the air wings). That is probably close to the total number of helo squadrons in the Navy. Fighters have only a single pilot but but there are more aircraft in a VFA squadron than an HS squadron. That balances out to about 15-18 pilots in the VFA squadron and about 18-20 in an HS squadron. Throw in the VP and VQ communities, who have 3 pilots per plane, VAW, VAQ.....Well, I hope you get my point.

I think what is skewing people's view recently is that there a lot of guys out of primary are selecting helos. When all of my buddies were selecting, the number of jet slots dropped by half because they were not sending guys to Meridian. The T-2's went down for about 7-8 months in '97 and Meridian was not taking anyone. There were P-3 slots galore though a lot of guys got them. Now with VP going through contraction, S-3 guys transitioning (most of the VS guys transitioning are going fixed wing) and the helo community going through an expansion, it would be natural that there would be a lot of helo guys being selected now.

As for helo pilots taking up 60-70% of the pilot slots in the Navy, I think that is just a helo pilots wet dream. Just take a step back and look at the numbers, you will see that it just does not add up. Facts are a lot better than TRACOM gouge and rumors, even if it is spoken by the IP's (who, let me guess, are helo types).

 

[Flash]

That doesn't make sense to me.... maybe I'm just to narrow minded... but that cuts down your strength by like 16%.... I wouldn't be for that unless they put an extra squadron in each air wing. What is the world coming to?

I would hate to sound like a broken record but the Navy cannot afford to replace its fighters one for one, it does not have the money. It is simple math, planes cost a lot more than they used to and even with the big defense budgets we have, there is no concievable way that the Navy and Marine Corps can afford that many planes. The Navy has cut its Super Hornet buy from 548 to 460 and the total Navy and Marine buy of JSF's from 1069 to 680. Just look at the numbers, the Marines will be even harder hit than the Navy, the only thing they are going to fly is the JSF and the number to be ordered will drop from 609 to 350.

Here is a good article that goes into a lot of depth about it. http://www.afa.org/magazine/Dec2002/1202wings.asp

And they say that it isn't just because of money, and I got some ocean front property to sell you in Arizona.

 

[46Driver]

I have thought of that and I wish I had the damn slide that the XO showed us. Why I still think it was a pilot only statistic is if you take a step back and look at the numbers, it makes sense. Think about it, there are about 36 operational fighter squadrons in the Navy (4 per the 10 air wings, minus 4 Marine Hornet squadorns in the air wings). That is probably close to the total number of helo squadrons in the Navy. Fighters have only a single pilot but but there are more aircraft in a VFA squadron than an HS squadron. That balances out to about 15-18 pilots in the VFA squadron and about 18-20 in an HS squadron. Throw in the VP and VQ communities, who have 3 pilots per plane, VAW, VAQ.....Well, I hope you get my point.

I think what is skewing people's view recently is that there a lot of guys out of primary are selecting helos. When all of my buddies were selecting, the number of jet slots dropped by half because they were not sending guys to Meridian. The T-2's went down for about 7-8 months in '97 and Meridian was not taking anyone. There were P-3 slots galore though a lot of guys got them. Now with VP going through contraction, S-3 guys transitioning (most of the VS guys transitioning are going fixed wing) and the helo community going through an expansion, it would be natural that there would be a lot of helo guys being selected now.

As for helo pilots taking up 60-70% of the pilot slots in the Navy, I think that is just a helo pilots wet dream. Just take a step back and look at the numbers, you will see that it just does not add up. Facts are a lot better than TRACOM gouge and rumors, even if it is spoken by the IP's (who, let me guess, are helo types).

Actually, the numbers I saw from CNATRA substantiated that (roughly 60% of the Navy pilots by 2008 will be helo bubbas). We are still ramping up in the HT's and expected to train roughly 33% more students if I remember all of the charts correctly.

 

[Flash]

Actually, the numbers I saw from CNATRA substantiated that (roughly 60% of the Navy pilots by 2008 will be helo bubbas). We are still ramping up in the HT's and expected to train roughly 33% more students if I remember the charts correctly.

Hmmmmm.....Well, like you said, by 2008 and not now. That number does suprise me a little bit and I still have my doubts. I am going to go home and try and dig out a Navy Times article about women pilots from 2 years ago, it had total numbers there. I guess the only way to reslove it will be to find out from Bupers.

 

[ControlledBurn]

I would highly recommend AGAINST camofluage helmet covers. Having seen some helos go into the water at night, the last thing you want is to cover up that reflective tape. Some argue, I want to be camofluaged in the event they can see my white helmet in the cockpit but then they go and use a lip light which can be seen more for a ways - that's right, I'm here, shoot me straight in the face.

Nothing really to add here, just a funny anecdote: When my dad flew off the USS Tarawa during the first Gulf War, he and his cohorts in the squadron were often seen wearing neon pink helmet covers.

 

[bch]

I would hate to sound like a broken record but the Navy cannot afford to replace its fighters one for one, it does not have the money. It is simple math, planes cost a lot more than they used to and even with the big defense budgets we have, there is no concievable way that the Navy and Marine Corps can afford that many planes. The Navy has cut its Super Hornet buy from 548 to 460 and the total Navy and Marine buy of JSF's from 1069 to 680. Just look at the numbers, the Marines will be even harder hit than the Navy, the only thing they are going to fly is the JSF and the number to be ordered will drop from 609 to 350.

Here is a good article that goes into a lot of depth about it. http://www.afa.org/magazine/Dec2002/1202wings.asp

And they say that it isn't just because of money, and I got some ocean front property to sell you in Arizona.

You can also take into account that as technology continues to advance, the theory is that you can do more with 1 advanced a/c than with 1.5-2 older ones... in reality not sure if that works, but just something to throw around.....

46driver, thanks for the CNATRA gouge, I was beginning to think I was helucinating.

 

[46Driver]

Hmmmmm.....Well, like you said, by 2008 and not now. That number does suprise me a little bit and I still have my doubts. I am going to go home and try and dig out a Navy Times article about women pilots from 2 years ago, it had total numbers there. I guess the only way to reslove it will be to find out from Bupers.

The article I saw had the numbers posted up in HT-8. They have already (I believe) started pulling JetRangers out of the desert (I think there were 13 spares). There was also talk of a 3rd HT but I think that has been put on the back burner. I'm on assignment overseas so PhrogDriver might have some real time numbers.