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Leaving Vietnam vs AFG

wlawr005

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
This was always going to be the outcome. If we’re looking to point fingers, Bush and his admin got us into this mess, and a long lineage of senior military leadership sustained the delusion that we were perpetually on the cusp of turning the corner. One presumes that this could have been done more gracefully, but it needed to be done.
I actually agree with you. Our prolonged presence there was a mistake and to think any withdrawl under any administration would look any different is a mistake.
I'm personally okay with being done with that shit hole forever. However, it won't be long before we bomb that place into moon dust like we did Mosul in 2017.
 

SlickAg

Registered User
pilot
Regarding that last bit, we don't seem to have a very good historical track record of promoting folks who look at a tasker from higher and go "no chance, Paddles." It's more likely that that person gets fired, the next person steps in, and they take the message to Garcia and get the credit. Do that for 30 years and for good and bad, I'd think it starts to become second nature.
So phrased another way, you’re saying that leadership just “going with the flow” and “going along to get along”, not being willing to speak up for fear of personal or professional reprisal, and remaining silent instead of bringing up and/or discussing a different point of view or suggesting alternative courses of action if these thoughts are counter to the accepted narrative might have possibly detrimental consequences...?
 

nittany03

Recovering NFO. Herder of Programmers.
pilot
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
So phrased another way, you’re saying that leadership just “going with the flow” and “going along to get along”, not being willing to speak up for fear of personal or professional reprisal, and remaining silent instead of bringing up and/or discussing a different point of view or suggesting alternative courses of action if these thoughts are counter to the accepted narrative might have possibly detrimental consequences...?
That's the cynical way of putting it, I guess. My point is that there's flaws to the "I've got a task, and I'm going to take the Message to Garcia come hell or high water" mentality. I'm not going to accuse people I've never worked with of having no moral backbone, because that's a shitty and cowardly thing to do anonymously from the comfort of a keyboard and no responsibility.
 

nittany03

Recovering NFO. Herder of Programmers.
pilot
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
I actually agree with you. Our prolonged presence there was a mistake and to think any withdrawl under any administration would look any different is a mistake.
I'm personally okay with being done with that shit hole forever. However, it won't be long before we bomb that place into moon dust like we did Mosul in 2017.
It was never going to last forever, but this was not the way it had to end. Supposedly, POTUS personally made the call for a complete pullout over the objections of Miller, Milley, and others, who wanted 2,500 sets of boots on the ground until a negotiated settlement was reached. Now he's going to have to own the fallout, because that IMO was the right COA. Set the stage for an orderly withdrawal, with a CONPLAN in your hip pocket to flex to if the Taliban welshed on the deal. At best, you get a jump on the emergency destruction plan and the SIV process for those that needed it.

It's one thing to say "we needed out, and this was going to happen anyway," but I'd give my left nut to be a fly on the wall in certain conference rooms in Taipei, Beijing, and Moscow after this fiasco. The entire narrative now is "America can't protect her allies," and dollars to donuts it's not just Islamic terrorists who are updating what they think is feasible right now. Because if you think this didn't utterly fuck our credibility with potential allies, think again.
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
These analogies to China and Taiwan are overwrought. There are an entirely different set of reasons why getting involved in that kind of conflict is a catastrophically bad idea for the US.
 

scoolbubba

Brett327 gargles ballsacks
pilot
Contributor
Surprising they are participating…you’d think the MEU CO would want to keep his Marines in the boat to support any contingencies that may pop up.

I feel like this definitely counts as a contingency, non?
 

Treetop Flyer

Well-Known Member
pilot
That's the cynical way of putting it, I guess. My point is that there's flaws to the "I've got a task, and I'm going to take the Message to Garcia come hell or high water" mentality. I'm not going to accuse people I've never worked with of having no moral backbone, because that's a shitty and cowardly thing to do anonymously from the comfort of a keyboard and no responsibility.
Remember when you impugned someone’s professionalism for suggesting something that turned out to be true? What ever happened to that? Aren’t you still climbing the ladder? Do you notice the similarity between your “Ive got the task” analogy and your willingness to accept a coordinated lie about the origin of covid?
 
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