Kneeboards For New PCL's

[zab1001]

Chiming in:

P-3s, every checklist we need is on one double sided sheet of laminated paper. Normal Procedures on one side, EPs on the other. Granted, being the NATOPS Nazis we are, everything is committed to memory verbatim anyway. Our PCL is the full size NATOPS since we have the FE there to review it. It's considered bad form not to know the EPs verbatim, even worse to not reference it after immediate action items are complete and you're "stabilized" (as much as the given situation allows).

Keep in mind, this has a lot to do with flying something larger than average, with more Aircrew. Our checklists are designed around an 11 man crew with most of us not in sight of each other, with varying levels of outside visibility. It's generally a good idea for everyone in the flight station to be on the same page, not mention alerting the crew you're about to loiter a motor or iniate a (possibly rapid if tactical) descent. No one needs AW2 Smith floating to the ceiling with an armful of buoys and CADs. We generally don't talk pilot-to-pilot-to-FE over ICS, and the distance between pilots is pretty far, so Comms (as far as SADCLAM) is the name of the game. The checklist keeps both pilots and the FE updated as to where we are in the procedure, since everyone is actively participating. It's saved my bacon down here when I have to fly with folks where the language barrier is greater than with others.

As far as setting up your cockpit, what's the fuss...figure out what works for you and just do it. Sheesh.

 

[skidkid]

I was talking starting the engine. Our landing checklsit is minimal i.e is the gun stowed.

Two down and welded

 

[Fly Navy]

I dont care what you fly memorizing checklists is bad, being very familiar is good. They are checklists for a reason. Dont be the guy that has a engine fire or something on start and not have the PCL out.

Our checklist is always out, the TW-1 approved condensed checklist that's on our kneeboards. You always check it quickly before takeoff to make sure you didn't miss an item. As far as engine fire on start, that is completely 100% a memory item checklist, per NATOPS. We don't change the normal checklists, they're just condensed. I have no idea why there is a difference in point-nose community (from what Brett says) and the others... I don't have that experience to comment...

 

[Gatordev]

I don't think Skid is referring to EPs at all, more of what to do to start the damn thing. You TacAir guys know the ins and outs of your jets, so I'm just talking on the helo side here, but the fleet birds are a lot more complicated to start up than a PT-6 or Allison. The concenpts the same (air, fire, enter fuel), but to get to that point, you want to make sure you've covered everything up to the that point, hence the need to not do it from memory. For example, did I set the rotor brake, if I didn't, or the blades slip, are the pitch-locks out, and if they are, will the pitch change horns bump the locks, and if that's good to go, will the computer stay on to prevent the trim from turning off which prevents the rotors dipping and cutting someones head off....? You get the idea.

Then there's things like the landing checklist. For 6 months, you do the same damn landing checklist. Do you really need to do it again when you come back to the beach? Only if you don't want to scrape your RAST probe and blow out your tires, because it's different than when on the boat.

But we're beating a dead horse here. I think we're all in agreement that our different communities have their own way of doing something, and for the most part, we're each right. However, in TW-5, if you're not using the PCL, you're wrong, at least for the time being.

 

[ChuckMK23]

I dont care what you fly memorizing checklists is bad, being very familiar is good. They are checklists for a reason. Dont be the guy that has a engine fire or something on start and not have the PCL out.

I didnt know any better at the time but Ic ant believe the training command gets away with changing NATOPs checklists. A guy I knew going back as an IP did his first CPT in Corpus and busted out his NATOPS PCL and started the procedures to start the airplane and Sim guy X starts yelling (apparently it happens to IUTs as well).

I don't think that's practical.

Challenge - action - reply is a little outdated and at least from what I know, is used in crew flown multi-piloted aircraft. So it was the norm in the '46. But from the rides I've been in tac air aircraft, the Pilt knows his/her aircarft thatfocusing on speed/accuracy is the key and that's what they train to. I believe that and from a Naval Aviation standpoint that seems totally ok and not at all unsafe - obviously the entire squadron and wing agrees.

In single pilot helo commercial operations it's the same. The checklist has a place but it's reserved for very particular situations. Our Part 135 approved training program taught "cockpit flow". Pre-start you wiped through the cockpit for proper pre-start switch settings and tests, went right to engine start. The pre-takeoff and landing checklist were placarded in the cockpit and were easily reviewed. Boldface for emergency items were of course memory items, and for engine failure in a multi-engine aircarft, they were the same regardless of aircraft type/model (FLY, IDENTIFY, THROTTLE, BEEP).

Both methods of checklist usage have their place.

I can't imagine as the backseater/pilot in a Cobra you have to talk to anyone from prestart to takeoff.

sidenote - on the V-22 aen't all the checklists displayed on the MFD's? That's a new mindset.

 

[skidkid]

No we dont challenge response but we have the PCL out and are following it. Sometime the bird is pretty much started before the front seater straps in.

 

[ChuckMK23]

When I was an IP at HT-18 I used to make upper stage SNA's start the aircraft by themselves when we were away from base. Florala or CEW or on a cross country (I'd lounge inside until I'd see the idle check.) Gave the SNA confidence and proved they new a thong or two. It also re-enforced that they need to engage their brains and watch what was going on and not break the aircraft or take an unsafe aircraft flying.

 

[BigIron]

This must be a helo vs. pointy nose thing (and the prop guys can chime in) because you don't do anything w/out a PCL in hand.

@Skid, they don't yell at you anymore, because of what happend w/ the guy and not turning on his lights (as discussed in another thread), so now they teach to use the PCL. There's still some IPs who use blue brains (I've been told), but it's not right, as per Stan.

Do those sim instructors attend your stan boards?

 

[Gatordev]

They get observed by the Wing Stan guys. Not sure how often, maybe every 6 months? But I've seen them occur.

 

[A4sForever]

Knee boards are fine in slow movers -- I also recommend "reading" all checklists --- I even used to recite them aloud -- to myself -- in the A-4 --- but then ... I used to talk to myself a lot in the Scooter. But in fast movers ??? ..... when you are yankin' and bankin' --- the knee board and/or most of it's contents will frequently end up around your ankle. Believe it .....

Keep the "need to know" stuff handy in a convenient, reliable place on one of the side consoles .... and that's based on 19,000+ hours of slow and fast mover time.

 

[jamnww]

They get observed by the Wing Stan guys. Not sure how often, maybe every 6 months? But I've seen them occur.

I don't know about others but all the sim instructors that I have had thus far have said follow the PCL...of course they also say gouge it up a little at least initially but hey...

 

[A4sForever]

I don't know about others but all the sim instructors that I have had thus far have said follow the PCL...of course they also say gouge it up a little at least initially but hey...

Here's the way I've always looked at this discussion .... the PCL (or NATOPS or CRM or SMAC or SOPA --- a little airline talk, there) is for the LEAST COMMON DENOMINATOR AMONGST AVIATORS. EVERYONE will do it. Including .... and here is what it's directed towards --- the "weakest" aviator in the outfit ... the "bottom line", if you will.

But: Anything you can do to "improve" the object of the exercise --- that is the moving of the A/C safely and efficiently from "A to B" and perhaps putting some warheads on foreheads somewhere in between --- is a good thing.

"Gouge" is a good thing ... it's culled from and called .... EXPERIENCE. It should never violate or contradict "procedure" .... but sometimes .... "gouge" is what improves the net result and product that is called .... "procedure". ( ... or NATOPS, or SMAC, or ..... whatever .... )

 

[Sly1978]

As far as I know, checklists (not EP's, just basic stuff) are specifically not memory items. The powers that be that wrote NATOPS do not want pilots to do things from memory unless the timing of the situation merits it. If the a/c is on fire and you're screaming toward the deck, you need to know that procedure by heart because there's no time to pull out the PCL. If you're sitting on the ground, starting the engine, you may be in a hurry but I can't think of a situation where the extra 30 sec the PCL costs you is going to get people killed. I can think of several where failure to pull out the PCL and forgetting a step may do just that (or at least seriously damage the taxpayers' property). The point is, memory is fallible, even in the best of us. If you look at the Memory EPs, the memory items are kept to the minimum nescessary. They gave us a PCL because they want us to use it. I don't know about jets, but all the A/C I've seen have landing/take-off checks written on the instrument panel somewhere. So even if it's not practical to reach for your PCL in the landing pattern, you still won't have to rely on your memory to make sure it all gets done.

 

[Fly Navy]

As far as I know, checklists (not EP's, just basic stuff) are specifically not memory items. The powers that be that wrote NATOPS do not want pilots to do things from memory unless the timing of the situation merits it. If the a/c is on fire and you're screaming toward the deck, you need to know that procedure by heart because there's no time to pull out the PCL. If you're sitting on the ground, starting the engine, you may be in a hurry but I can't think of a situation where the extra 30 sec the PCL costs you is going to get people killed. I can think of several where failure to pull out the PCL and forgetting a step may do just that (or at least seriously damage the taxpayers' property). The point is, memory is fallible, even in the best of us. If you look at the Memory EPs, the memory items are kept to the minimum nescessary. They gave us a PCL because they want us to use it. I don't know about jets, but all the A/C I've seen have landing/take-off checks written on the instrument panel somewhere. So even if it's not practical to reach for your PCL in the landing pattern, you still won't have to rely on your memory to make sure it all gets done.

We know what you're saying, but read the posts from the TACAIR types (Fleet types)... it's a different world than helo world. I don't have the experience to tell you why, I just know it is.

 

[Brett327]

We know what you're saying, but read the posts from the TACAIR types (Fleet types)... it's a different world than helo world. I don't have the experience to tell you why, I just know it is.

Yeah, any pilot who pulled out his PCL for engine starts, or landing checklist, would have said PCL taken away from him by his ECMO1, then berrated in the debrief as well as the next AOM. Just the culture of the community - different strokes fellas.

Brett