MasterBates
Well-Known Member
If you are comforted by the ejection seat, what exactly do you think is coming to get you when it does its job?
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Ht-28???
- Thread starter m061656
- Start date
That reminds me of an old quote about the Piper Cub: It's so safe, it can just barely kill you.
That's gotta be nice. Especially since we only got 3 NVD flights in the FRS and none of those was overland...and this is in the 60S, the first Navy Helo designed from the start for NVGs.
If I come into the situation where I have to punch, all bets are off. You can come get me in the Hindenburg and I'm going to be the same amount of grateful.
phrogpilot73
Well-Known Member
I'm pretty sure it's a lime...
This is coming from the outside looking in at advanced as I've yet to get there.........but in following the various Airwarrior's threads, listening to IP's in the ready room, and talking to friends ahead of me, it seems as if it's a function of what the different pipelines have been doing historically.
What I mean is that helo advanced seems more about producing competent instrument efficient aviators vice tactical gurus. I've gathered the same about maritime advanced. However, jet advanced seems to teach some of the basics of tactical, weapons on target, "basic warfighting" skills.
From reading about the hurdles that have seemingly have been in the way for the armed helo concept, it seems as if the higher ups still are solely relying, in this case, on the idea that a helo is a pure support tool and not a specific weapons platform. That, I would think, would lend some support to why there isn't specific "tactical" training in helo advanced. That may change in time as the new helo master plan comes on line and some helos get used in new roles.
Hope that wasn't too much talking out my ass, but that's just how it appears to me.
**edit** this is my opinion on the Navy side of the house, it's different obviously in the Marines, but we train together so it still seems to apply
MasterBates
Well-Known Member
Helos have been weapons delivery platforms since the 50's.. Just the Navy ones have not seen much use since HAL went away in the 70s.
The weapons/tactics that were mostly applicable to HSL and HS historically would be damn near impossible to teach in the context of the HTs. ASW is hard to train to in that environment.
Now, with Armed Helo running, it may change, but the -57 is not capable of carrying weapons in its current incarnation. Most of the weapon use and tactics in HSL are the responsibilty of the ATO (think NFO, but it's a pilot job) and are very platform specific.. HAL Pilot used to have a good avatar that showed most of the pilot duties in ASW (Just follow the Fly-To). Without getting into a tactical discussion, ASW is more like chess and less like boxing.
IBB is on the right track though, a good chunk (not all) of senior leadership, both aviator and particularly SWO had a hard time seeing the 60B as more than a ASW or RADAR/ESM platform.
For those of you going Helos, it is changing.. Slowly but its changing.
The weapons/tactics that were mostly applicable to HSL and HS historically would be damn near impossible to teach in the context of the HTs. ASW is hard to train to in that environment.
Now, with Armed Helo running, it may change, but the -57 is not capable of carrying weapons in its current incarnation. Most of the weapon use and tactics in HSL are the responsibilty of the ATO (think NFO, but it's a pilot job) and are very platform specific.. HAL Pilot used to have a good avatar that showed most of the pilot duties in ASW (Just follow the Fly-To). Without getting into a tactical discussion, ASW is more like chess and less like boxing.
IBB is on the right track though, a good chunk (not all) of senior leadership, both aviator and particularly SWO had a hard time seeing the 60B as more than a ASW or RADAR/ESM platform.
For those of you going Helos, it is changing.. Slowly but its changing.
Yeah, that was kind of my point. I obviously don't know much about the ASW stuff and all, but I recall a post awhile back where it was said that the old school smallboy skippers were really reluctant to send their Bravo's out for anything other than ASW for fear of losing them (i.e. overland). A change in that mindset would probably bring about changes in the training pipeline shortly thereafter.
Strictly my personal opinion as a non-HSL guy who flies R's and S's (including armed helo with B kit):
For R's, the issue won't be that the SWO's see them as only "a ASW or RADAR/ESM platform" but that those roles are by far the most useful to them. SURFPAC and SURFLANT have long been champions of that community, and as such they have earned a lot of say in how they are employed.
As far as teaching tactics in HTs go, while I suppose you could teach some basic gun patterns, a -57 simply does not have the avionics required to simulate even the most basic capabilities of the R and S. We really do not have the capacity even to fake it.
For R's, the issue won't be that the SWO's see them as only "a ASW or RADAR/ESM platform" but that those roles are by far the most useful to them. SURFPAC and SURFLANT have long been champions of that community, and as such they have earned a lot of say in how they are employed.
As far as teaching tactics in HTs go, while I suppose you could teach some basic gun patterns, a -57 simply does not have the avionics required to simulate even the most basic capabilities of the R and S. We really do not have the capacity even to fake it.
MasterBates
Well-Known Member
Prop/Helo Trainers = Commercial Aircraft with UHF and TACAN added.
Jet Trainer = British Attack Jet with second seat added
That is a big difference in aircraft capabilites to try to overcome.. Back when TH-1s were used in HT-18 (HT-8 was the "intermediate helo" outfit IIRC) getting some guns would be a range & allocation issue. Now, its an airframe incompatability issue.
Jet Trainer = British Attack Jet with second seat added
That is a big difference in aircraft capabilites to try to overcome.. Back when TH-1s were used in HT-18 (HT-8 was the "intermediate helo" outfit IIRC) getting some guns would be a range & allocation issue. Now, its an airframe incompatability issue.
Something to consider: Basic section work & tac maneuvering is something that is much more fundamental about how Jet platforms operate and it's common to all the communities, so it's natural that it's taught in Advanced, whereas that's not the case with helos. Teaching tactics (like ASW) would be a waste of time in HTs, especially since it's not something that would be applicable to all platforms.
Brett
Another thing that might be different between the communities is the fact that maritime and helo pilots don't go out on their own as they do in tactical. In HSL we're a 2P for half of our sea tour, then we go through the HAC process to sign for the a/c. There's experience to bank on when you're a new guy in helos, not so much in jets when you're the dude in the cockpit. Maybe I'm talking out of my a$$, but it seems logical from my standpoint.
The "problem" is much higher than the SWO CO. He just does what the HEC/LEC/Admiral tells him...to a point anway.
Interesting. How long were the hops? I thought the MAWTS standard was 10 hours. When I went through, since we have the gas, it was four 2.5 hour hops. We did overwater, over OLF, and some work up at Camp Pen. I was guessing that the reason the HTs do 5 hops is because of gas.