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How do women keep up???

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EngineGirl

Sleepy Head
manny7_99 said:
Sorry if you took it personal. I guess humor can't be read very well online. However, if you can't handle criticism how will you ever keep up? (And I dont mean physically.) I did read the whole thread. Word of advice to you...develop a thick skin. Just my .00002 cents

Good Luck'

Humor can't be read very well online, so sorry to reply like that if you were just trying to be funny. Criticism doesn't bother me. I've been in school as an engineer, and sailed as an engineer on several different ships, and engineers are extremely critical of each other and we pick on each other all the time. So I do have thick skin. To me, your comment sounded like you were saying that women can't keep up with anything (not just PT) and that they shouldn't be in the military (I have run into some people who have this belief). If thats not what you were saying, I apologize for my somewhat harsh reply.

-Erin Leigh
 

KSUFLY

Active Member
pilot
Fly Navy said:
Patty Wagstaff kicks ass. I'd love to see her perform live.
I saw Patty Wagstaff in Wichita, KS on a crappy day. It was about 1800 ovc and 7 miles vis. What was really great is that night on the news, they were interviewing the Air Force pilots that cancelled their show due to the weather just as Patty went screaming behind them upside down in the rain. They were dumbfounded when she went by.
 
i guess i came into this thread just a TAD late. as a woman in NROTC. i can attest to the rediculously low minimum scores to pass for both the Navy and Marine Corps side of the house. having recently switched, i can say my standards got harder, especially when you have to sustain your 1.5 mile pace for twice the distance, but with good training, you can do it. i only ever ran a 10:46 as my fastest 1.5 time, and considering i ran twice as far for my latest PFT, i ran it in 22:50 with splits of 11:20 and 11:30. that's only 12 points off perfect (21:00). my beef is actually with the Navy female standards. while the guys have ten-second intervals for every 1 point until their max, females have it until 11:15, but to get 100 points, they have to run a 9:29. where's the sense in having 95 points at 11:15 and 100 at 9:29? why almost two minutes faster? that's completely insane and i've never figured out why it is so...

i can also attest to the fact that it is physically harder for females, especially short ones like me (i'm 61.5 inches) to run as fast as males. additionally, it is extremely hard for me to do crunches due to the short distance from my shoulder to my elbow. try as hard as i might, i am not going to only have to hunch my shoulders to get a crunch. i basically have to do a full sit-up and it kills me every time. i have yet to get 100 crunches and i've got my aMOI and MOI harping on me that these should be gimmes. yet my PFT score is in the 270's. i am the only female in my class who can do 8 or 9 dead-hang, palm-out pullups.

for one more thing, it's very hard for me to maintain height/weight standards. i would like to say it's because i'm very muscular, but only being 61.5 inches, i only get 137 pounds. i'm at about 142 and have been for three semesters, so it's not like i'm putting it on. i've maintained from when i started doing FTX's, humps, and weight-lifting. but for some reason, i'm less of a person because i can't just get weighed and pass. it's highly frustrating as a very athletic woman who happens to be short.
 

virtu050

P-8 Bubba
pilot
I think the standards are different between men and women just as they're different for age groups. The PRT measures your physical ability based on your capacity. The navy cares how physically fit you are so you don't have a heart attack if you have to run a distance or are in a stressful situation... not that you can run 1.5 miles in such and such a time or do so many push ups/sit ups. correct me if I'm wrong... but doesn't the airforce do their PRT based on heart rate?

My form partner in primary was a female and she kicked ass. My on-wing in advanced is female and I think she's a great pilot. Do I care if they can't run 1.5 miles as fast as me? nope.. because I know they're physically. Something else u guys should know is that once you leave API noone is going to make you PT. There will be PRTs every six months or so but all you need is a Good-Low as an officer (vice. excellent low at OCS) Those of you at whiting have it made too... 1.5 miles.. all straight-a-way... slight downhill slope. I had one of my best times ever :)
 

VarmintShooter

Bottom of the barrel
pilot
So why do we run the PFA?

If the reason is because we need a certain level of fitness to do our job, then certainly the standards should be the same for men and women of all age groups. Does that make sense? Not really I don't think. To expect a 50 year old woman to be able to do the same minimums as an 18 year old male just wouldn't work, no matter how you cut it.

So if not to do our jobs, then why do we do it (in the Navy this is)? In my opinion it is so that we don't look like fat a$$es in our uniforms and, as someone else said, because we are professionals and need to take pride in ourselves. I know that the PFA isn't all that good in this regard either, but I can't think of any other good reason to do the PFA at all, and that being the case the different standards do make sense.

I used to get all pi$$ed every time I went to PT and the girls couldn't do it as well as the rest of us guys, but I finally figured out that the system did make a weird sort of sense to me. Of course, I still rag on the females for taking 25 minutes to finish the run, but only after I stop wheezing and hacking from running mine in a good/low sort of time.

If girls want to run as fast as me, good for them. As far as the Marines, I don't know why you guys joined the Corps if you don't love to run/PT, but it's not necessarily true for the rest of the world.
 

plmtree

Registered User
I hope you guys don't hate me for bursting into a Navy thread but I had to put in my two cents. Its a great thread by the way. But back to the original issue. Formation runs, battalion runs. Aren't these runs supposed to be motivational? Battalion runs were originally designed to motivate the troops and build comraderie and maybe some friendly rivalry between the companies and what not. But now-a-days that is the last thing anybody thinks about when they hear: "Battalion formation run tomorrow, 0630." You think something more along the lines of "torture and humilliation tomorrow, 0630". Many people immediately start thinking of something that could get them out of it...Men and women.

Like it or not, any outfit is as strong as its slowest member. And like it or not, many a slow member ends up being a female. We all speak of being equal, of being service'members' and not service'men' or service'women'. But comparing men and women is like comparing a 1 year old child with an 80 year old person: although they have the same body composition their bodies themselves are extremely different and require different care.

We can be equal in the workplace since both men and women go to the same schools and learn the same things but asking to be equal physically is just impossible. There are a few women out there who can run men into the ground, but just as somebody said earlier, why is it that even the fastest woman on the planet still can't beat the fastest man on the planet? Because we're different. Get used to it!!

What really counts is how we'll to react to the situations presented to us through our military careers. Will we make the right decisions right there and then? I don't care if the person next to me in a fighting hole runs their PRT/PFT in the max allowable time if they are proficient at what they do and can keep my sorry a$$ alive, I'll sure as hell do the same for them, male or female.

And as mentioned earlier, we are professionals, we should look the part. That is why we are required to maintain these physical fintess standards. That is why weight control and physical appearance are part of our vocabularies. And being that men and women are different, that is why you have differnet physical fitness requirements and different height/weight requirements. Do you see different proficiency requirements for men and women? I didn't think so.

Anyway, the whole point of my post is to add to the obvious differences in men and women that inevitably will always be there, and going back to the original thread, I believe that most battalion runs are ran with the wrong purpose. A battalion run isn't supposed to prove your physical fitness, that is why you PT on your own, with your section/squad/platoon/whatever and that is why you run a PRT/PFT. A battalion run is something that should be used as a motivational tool.
 

wannabef18pilot

Registered User
Do you guys remember when they introduced women to fighters in the early 90's? 1 died on her first F-14 carrier landing and the other was discharged for reasons I'm unaware.

I agree, the physical standards for men and women should be equal. I'm sure you have to be physically fit to wrestle with the g-forces of a jet and then land it on a carrier. Lets be realistic, if a woman or a man cannot pass the PRT (come on its the PRT!) they don't have any business flying a jet.
 

CandKyMarine

Registered User
I heard a rumor that some female Marine just destroyed the rest of her class at API in the in-PRT. Think she proved that women can keep up and then some.
 

EngineGirl

Sleepy Head
wannabef18pilot said:
Do you guys remember when they introduced women to fighters in the early 90's? 1 died on her first F-14 carrier landing and the other was discharged for reasons I'm unaware.

I agree, the physical standards for men and women should be equal. I'm sure you have to be physically fit to wrestle with the g-forces of a jet and then land it on a carrier. Lets be realistic, if a woman or a man cannot pass the PRT (come on its the PRT!) they don't have any business flying a jet.

Umm, I think blaming what those women did (or didn't do) on the fact that men and women don't have the same physical standards isn't very logical. If I remember correctly, the women who died on her first carrier landing shouldn't have been flying anyways (I seem to remember it coming out that no one thought she should've been qualified to fly).

Yes, like I've said before, the slowest times for women are ridiculously slow, but blaming these womens mistakes on the fact that women's PT standards are lower doesn't make much sense at all. I think the problem was their piloting abilities, not how fast they ran or how many situps/pushups they could do.

EngineGirl
 

PudriK

SCGA (VT-3)
The question of equal standards has to be considered from your physical fitness objective.

In the case of pilots, the goal is to have individuals with stamina, the ability to withstand G, the strength to operate the controls (not much in modern aircraft), and the ability to take care of themselves if shot down.

So it is not so important that a woman have the same strength as a man or be able to run as fast, which for a woman would be at higher level of fitness. Instead, experts have to set a bar for women which is testable, yet scores for an equivalent level of "fitness." For example, given that women are smaller and have less muscle density, does a woman who can run a 10 min mile have the same physical endurance as a man who can run an 8 min mile? (Or whatever the equivalent score is.) Do we expect that a woman who scores a 300 will be equally capable, physically, of operating an aircraft as a man who scores a 300? This is a difficult standard to measure.

Now, if we are talking infantry, or armor, that is another question. A woman would be expected to hump the same load, keep up with her squad on the march, be able (with one other) to pull someone out of a wreck or off the field, etc. This requires equal standards. (People love to argue that a woman couldn't pull a fellow soldier off the field alone... well, many guys couldn't either, esp when the casualty is much bigger. So this isn't a realistic expectation. But she should be able to carry one side of a litter, or drag one side of the body.) In these roles, there are objective, measurable, strength and speed requirements which have nothing to do with individual fitness and everything to do with job performance.

That said, there are women in combat right now, despite our laws against it, because of the nature of this war. I'm sure there are a lot of lessons being learned over there about what works and what doesn't, and if they can make it past the PC/PA screen, we might actually hear about them.
 

Pags

N/A
pilot
wannabef18pilot said:
Do you guys remember when they introduced women to fighters in the early 90's? 1 died on her first F-14 carrier landing and the other was discharged for reasons I'm unaware.

I agree, the physical standards for men and women should be equal. I'm sure you have to be physically fit to wrestle with the g-forces of a jet and then land it on a carrier. Lets be realistic, if a woman or a man cannot pass the PRT (come on its the PRT!) they don't have any business flying a jet.

She died because her engine flamed out on final, and the asymetric thrust from one engine yawed, and in turn rolled, the jet. when she punched out the jet was inverted and she was fired into the water, killing her on impact.

the f-14a was pretty notorious for flameouts at low speeds and high AoA.

there have been plenty of physically fit males who have been killed due to mechanical malfunctions in avaition. running an 8:00 min 1.5mi and doing millions of pushups is gonna be of very little help when your plane decideds to become a lawn dart.
 
Pags said:
running an 8:00 min 1.5mi and doing millions of pushups is gonna be of very little help when your plane decideds to become a lawn dart.

For some reason I found that to be absolutely hilarious.

But on topic, i think setting PFT scores to be the same for males and females is a bad idea. I appreciate the hardcore females who want to raise their standards...it's really motivating, but at the same time I think it's pretty unrealistic. The current min scores for males are pretty damn low, particularly with the way so many people absolutely friggin CHEEZ pushups and sits. On the other hand, those are pretty good scores for females who've been physically active all their lives, especially pushups, which is outrageously high for most females.
Either way, a compromise means males really get to let themselves go, or all the females are going to be serious GI Janes.
 

Fox

Registered User
Hey,
I hope nobody will kill me here, first because I'm Air Force, second because I'm Italian. (If you don't succeed in killing me on your first attempt I'll have my mafia guys looking for ya....).
I just happened to read all these words on how women keep up and so on....
I've been flying for 13 years now and I flew with some women too, we (as It. A. F.) started to open our ranks to girls, and, so far, I haven't had problems with it.
Of course we're different (girls are better at multi-tasking for they use both parts of the brain, things that we don't do, but we're less emotional for example), but if the standards are set and very precise, nobody will get hurt.
Let's try to be honest, on both parts, and face facts. If you reach the standards you go, if not you're out.
I don't care if my Wingman/Lead (should i say wingwoman to be politically correct? just joking) is a man, woman or whatever....if he/she flies the way it should be done, I'm fine with it.
I'd like to say something else too, my girlfriend is in the Air Force (U.S.) and she is a s**t hot officer and yes, she is a woman.
Take care everybody.
Fox
 

smittyrunr

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
Pags said:
She died because her engine flamed out on final, and the asymetric thrust from one engine yawed, and in turn rolled, the jet. when she punched out the jet was inverted and she was fired into the water, killing her on impact.

the f-14a was pretty notorious for flameouts at low speeds and high AoA.

.


Not only that, but it wasn't her first F-14 landing anyway. They were doing workups for deployment. It wasn't that she shouldn't have been flying, it was that when the Navy report came out, they said she was an "above average" pilot, when her grades showed she was actually "average"... for an F-14 pilot that is.
 

WannaBEaP3gal

Registered User
Ever noticed how much the guys can't keep up? I just took a PFA, and like all of them, I finished well ahead of probably 70% of the guys running it... Ahh the enjoyment I get when I pass them on the run... and their look of pure shock and disbelief, thinking "This girl is gonna beat me!"... Hell yeah I am!
 
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