{GUN THREAD} Bye Bye 9mm

[A4sForever]

.45 ACP is back ???

.45 ACP is BACK !!! (maybe ??? ) HOOOOAH !!!


The JCP (Joint Combat Pistol) program has been going on for some time --- when strategypage.com gets it --- it's usually "old news". It's been in earnest since the middle of last year, although I think the solicitation was originally put out in January of 2005. I also believe most of the test and evaluation is being done or will be done at NSWC Crane, Indiana.

It doesn't mention anything about "requiring" a hammer, but it does talk about "lowering the hammer from a cocked position". It also indicates an allowance for two orders --- one with and one without an external safety. I'm guessing that some H&K and SIG models might have the inside track as presently designed.

A brief synopsis of the requirements:

Solicitation number : H92222-05-R-0017
Title : 10 -- Joint Combat Pistol (JCP) System

Description

The USSOCOM intends to issue a solicitation to obtain commercially available non-developmental item (NDI) Joint Combat Pistol (JCP) system, Caliber .45 (ACP). The Program will use full and open competition to fulfill the JCP requirement.

The JCP will be delivered in accordance with specification entitled "Performance Specification Joint Combat Pistol" to be provided with issuance of the solicitation.

Two configurations of the pistol will be required:
One configuration will have no external safety and the other configuration will have an external safety.

The Combat Pistol System consists of: a Caliber .45 pistol and its ancillary equipment including: Magazines (standard and high-capacity); Suppressor Attachment Kit for operation of the pistol with and without sound suppressor; Holster; Magazine Holder (standard and high-capacity); Cleaning Kit; and Operator's Manual.

The Minimum Quantity is 24 each Engineering Test Units (ETU's), 12 each with external manual safety and 12 each without external manual safety. The estimated Maximum quantities are: 45,000 no external safety JCP configuration and 600,000 JCP with the external safety configuration; 649,000 Holsters; 96,050 Standard Capacity Magazines; 192,099 High Capacity Magazines; 667,000 Magazine Holders; 132,037 Suppressor attachment kits.......

For the performance specifications:

http://fs2.fbo.gov/EPSData/ODA/Synopses/27191/H92222-05-R-0017/Attch01JCPspec080905.doc

*EDIT* JUST ONE MAN'S OPINION: I personally think it might come down to something like a SIG P220 or H&K P2000/3000 in .45 ACP as frontrunners ... or maybe just give up and go with a USP .45ACP ??? As much as I'd like it personally, I don't think it will ever again be a 1911-style; although MODERN 1911's can compete with any Euro-pistol in reliability and function. They just take more time-to-train on for the average trigger-puller than the Euro-trash-designer pistols. ALTHOUGH .... there were rumors of an H&K 1911-style being designed for the Navy SPECWAR community last year ...... as my "former" SEAL MCPO friend confirms.

To hammer or not to hammer?? That has always been a requirement with USGI firearms by the Ordnance types --- but I suppose it could go by the wayside this time. Remember --- all the specs in the above link are just technical guesstimates --- the final, contract product might be a compromise with several "requirements" being thrown out or new ones piggybacked on.

Both SIG and H&K have experience with US government contracts and I am sure they will do whatever necessary to keep the greenbacks flowing into the coporate office. I think politics will determine where this pistol is made --- and SIG, H&K, and Beretta all have US plants. Glock remains offshore as far as production is concerned and as long as they do --- say goodby to US government contracts. I have heard that GLOCK is beginning construction on a US located plant, however .

Politics. Votes. Money. Politics. Votes. Money. Politics. Votes. Money ......... The beat goes on ....

 

[McNamara]

Jesus, you guys get to carry the M11! Lucky bastards. I thought that's what we'd get too, but instead we got a bunch of M9s. At least they're brand new.

Honestly, it doesn't make a big difference what kind of pistol they issue for general carry, as long as it's reliable and relatively easy to use. Few people can hit anything under stress with a pistol anyway, unless you're a special operator, and then your unit probably gets to choose the pistol. Of course, I'd like to see better training mandated military-wide, then we could actually issue something like the 1911 again without all the damn accidental discharges.

 

[ChuckMK23]

No one said it wasn't a fine pistol. It's a very good gun. Sure, it's accurate and reliable (like most every other pistol out there), but it's FUCKING HUGE and weighs a ton. That alone negates it's positives and makes it more a novelty than a contender for a standard service pistol -- it's the size of a Desert Eagle for gods sake. That, and the simple fact that it's stamped with "HK" on the slide results in it costing a lot more than it's worth. There is no reason to spend what a Mk23 costs for what you get. A plain USP will do the job the same..

If they want a hi-cap .45 that is US made, their options are rather limited. Doublestack 1911s (shudder), XDs, or USPs are about it. I wouldn't be surprised at all if Springfield threw their hat in the ring for a service pistol competition. USPs are too pricey for such a scale. For sheer reliability, feeding of ANY ammo, and ease of maintenance though, they won't beat a Glock (made OCONUS, so not a player).

I agree with Squeeze on this. I've shot the MK23 extensively. It's a great pistol for what it was designed for. Very low recoil and 1/2 inch groups at 25 yards. It was not designed as a defensive/backup sidearm. It was designed to meet SOCOM's requirements as an offensive handun - e.g. clearing a room or CQB scenario where accuarcy and stealth were paramount. The weapon is shipped to the military with a wonderful supressor (Knights) and an Insight laser/light combo.

H&K built what it was asked to in the requirements. This was not a weapon that H&K dreamed up.

Interesting is that this weapon, at least in Navy special warfare units has been relugated to boat crews, the front line SEALS have passed on it - boat crews took them as hand-me downs and use them as sidearms.

This is a BIG weapon. I am 6'4" and 230 lbs and it barely fits my hands. Very ungainly but a pleasure to shoot/point. Typical H&K quality item.

They are very popular in the civie market and retail for between $1700-2000.

 

[Blutonski816]

Interesting is that this weapon, at least in Navy special warfare units has been relugated to boat crews, the front line SEALS have passed on it - boat crews took them as hand-me downs and use them as sidearms.

Yeah, a lot of SOCOM units originally issued the Mk23 have moved to the USP Tactical...

You gotta wonder what the Boat crews are gonna do with an offensive pistol, though...

DRIVE-BY!!!

 

[A4sForever]

Just to clarify ... as I understand it .... the specification says nothing about a "hi-cap" pistol --- just "hi-cap" magazines. I am guessing they will issue "standard" magazines (8 round) and additional "hi-cap" magazines which would protrude below the magazine well ....

Any other guesses ???

 

[Gatordev]

I'm having trouble downloading it, it gets about 10 seconds of download then stops, saying the file is unavailable on the server.

It wasn't that important, anyway. Guess I'll look for a better sharing site. Thanks for the feedback, all.

 

[Fly Navy]

Another hangup on Glock is the lack of an true *read traditional* Safety for the weapon. Grip Safetys are all you need IMHO, provided you properly train your gun bearers, but hey this is a government job.

If it's a true SA/DA or DAO pistol (Glock and XD do not qualify), then no safety whatsoever is necessary, just a decocker (for the SA/DA). Manual safeties on a traditional DA/SA pistol are completely unnecessary.

What a Glock or SIG has over an XD or Ruger is combat experience. Glocks and SIGs are used in armies all over the world, XDs and as far as I know Rugers are not, though I'm not sure about the Czech design that the XD is stolen from.

Honestly, it doesn't make a big difference what kind of pistol they issue for general carry, as long as it's reliable and relatively easy to use. Few people can hit anything under stress with a pistol anyway

There is a reason for this: lack of training. I love Navy FAMFIRE... "point at that huge target and shoot. If you hit anywhere on it, good." No realistic training whatsoever.

 

[Gatordev]

There is a reason for this: lack of training. I love Navy FAMFIRE... "point at that huge target and shoot. If you hit anywhere on it, good." No realistic training whatsoever.

And it shows when they have to hit anything....

 

[Brett327]

If it's a true SA/DA or DAO pistol (Glock and XD do not qualify), then no safety whatsoever is necessary, just a decocker (for the SA/DA). Manual safeties on a traditional DA/SA pistol are completely unnecessary.

What a Glock or SIG has over an XD or Ruger is combat experience. Glocks and SIGs are used in armies all over the world, XDs and as far as I know Rugers are not, though I'm not sure about the Czech design that the XD is stolen from.



There is a reason for this: lack of training. I love Navy FAMFIRE... "point at that huge target and shoot. If you hit anywhere on it, good." No realistic training whatsoever.

I think when the Navy weighs the amount of time and ammunition required to train aviators and keep them current against the probability of them actually having to use their sidearms in a tactical scenario, the famfire doctrine wins. These days (in our risk averse military), the probability of getting shot down is pretty low. Now add the possibility that if you do go down, the whole enemy country is going to make finding you their #1 priority. I take 3 mags with me when I fly over Indian country, but the chances of even a tactically proficient marksman being able to fend off a sizable force with 30-40 rounds and a pistol is also pretty slim.

Brett

 

[Fly Navy]

I think when the Navy weighs the amount of time and ammunition required to train aviators and keep them current against the probability of them actually having to use their sidearms in a tactical scenario, the famfire doctrine wins. These days (in our risk averse military), the probability of getting shot down is pretty low. Now add the possibility that if you do go down, the whole enemy country is going to make finding you their #1 priority. I take 3 mags with me when I fly over Indian country, but the chances of even a tactically proficient marksman being able to fend off a sizable force with 30-40 rounds and a pistol is also pretty slim.

Brett

Oh I know... if you're using your pistol, you're probably screwed... but I meant the Navy as a whole in that post. Sorry, I wasn't clear about that. The Navy is a military force... yet most know nothing of small arms. Isn't Force Protection the "new thing"?

 

[Brett327]

Oh I know... if you're using your pistol, you're probably screwed... but I meant the Navy as a whole in that post. Sorry, I wasn't clear about that. The Navy is a military force... yet most know nothing of small arms. Isn't Force Protection the "new thing"?

Yeah, that's what the MAs are for.

Brett

 

[theduke]

Beretta 92FS isn't the garbage that some claim, but it's nothing great at all. overrated pistol for sure..

SIG P226/P228 are AWESOME, AWESOME pieces. I owned a P226 and put probably 1500 rounds through it (after a police department put who knows how many through it before me), and it still shot like a dream. GREAT gun. only reason i sold it was to buy a new Springfield stainless loaded model...the SIG was kinda beat up cosmetically. I'll get another SIG, but I'll get a new or very good used one next time, now that I'm out of college and don't mind spending the $.

a nice 1911 rocks, too, but I'd much rather have the P226 as a service pistol. 1911s aren't easy to strip and care for in the field, whereas I can take apart a P226 in about 3 seconds.


there are only two reasons I can think of that a P226 wouldn't be my pick of the litter as a service pistol (and the latter isn't really even a good reason)...it isn't ambidextrous like a beretta is, and it doesn't have a manual safety.

 

[Fly Navy]

there are only two reasons I can think of that a P226 wouldn't be my pick of the litter as a service pistol (and the latter isn't really even a good reason)...it isn't ambidextrous like a beretta is, and it doesn't have a manual safety.

A manual safety would be the most ridiculous thing to put on a SIG. It's safer WITHOUT it, god knows what kind of retard would hurt themselves with a manual safety on a SIG.

 

[feddoc]

I gotta wonder exactly what an aircrew expects to do with his/her sidearm.

If you get down in bad guy country, they will most likely not be a couple of farmers armed with pitchforks.

What we used to teach during CSAR courses was that (assuming an evasion scenario) it would be more practical to have a high capacity .22 or .22mag as your sidearm....lower sound signature....since you are trying to survive (maybe kill a couple of small animals) instead of fight the war with a handgun (remember USN doesn't provide adquate training for this scenario) against soldiers with training and with rifles.

I carried a Grendel P-30 during GW I. .22 mag, 30 round magazine....sort of like an early Glock in composition. It also came with a threaded barrel.

 

[nittany03]

I gotta wonder exactly what an aircrew expects to do with his/her sidearm.

If you get down in bad guy country, they will most likely not be a couple of farmers armed with pitchforks.

What we used to teach during CSAR courses was that (assuming an evasion scenario) it would be more practical to have a high capacity .22 or .22mag as your sidearm....lower sound signature....since you are trying to survive (maybe kill a couple of small animals) instead of fight the war with a handgun (remember USN doesn't provide adquate training for this scenario) against soldiers with training and with rifles.

From this non-SERE-graduate's point of view, I always though the sidearm would be kind of a last-ditch thing. I wouldn't be trying to fight the war with it, but if a single enemy finds you you can possibly silence him before he raises the alarm.