[GUN] Poll

[Brett327]

Sorry if I offended you, I did mean that mostly as a joke. I definitely understand it for the ease of transporting and to have while on the road. But I spent time working at an indoor shooting range and it amazed me at the number of people that would be packing on a daily basis just because they had the permit.

No, I'm not offended, I'm agreeing with you. There are certain times when I'd like to have a weapon at the ready, but people who walk around with them at all times seem a bit paranoid. I suspect many of them are doing it for the Joe Cool factor.

Brett

 

[MasterBates]

For me, CCW has been about the convenience of easy transport and being able to have something in my vehicle while I'm on the road. Seriously, are there any of you who are carrying regularly as you go about your day?

Brett

I do. I don't live in the Ghetto, but its about 1 mile away. Have come home and had strangers walk up to me before I can get in a couple times.

 

[Brett327]

I do. I don't live in the Ghetto, but its about 1 mile away. Have come home and had strangers walk up to me before I can get in a couple times.

Oh no! Not a stranger! How many of these people required the use of deadly force to get rid of?

Brett

 

[todd740]

I do as well, you put on your seatbelt when getting in the car...it's no different.

 

[MasterBates]

At 0230, I don't like anyone being on my property but me.

 

[insanebikerboy]

Seriously, are there any of you who are carrying regularly as you go about your day?

Everywhere I'm legally allowed to take it, condition 1. If I can't take it in with me the wonderful Florida laws let me toss it in the glove box and that's totally legal. It's not a paranoid/Joe Cool thing, I just think that it's pretty pointless to have a CCW and not carry (although the legal transporting thing makes sense).

COL Grossman makes a great point about carrying in his On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs speech. http://www.killology.com/sheep_dog.htm, near the bottom of the page. (shameless plus for all of his books, great author)

 

[badger16]

ditto to the i'm in college and have no money... My pops owns about 13...my favorite is the 44 magnum...we call it wyatt Earp...but when I get out I want to get a kimber .45 stainless...very nice!!

 

[h2o polo]

Here is how I see it. First off I do see it as being different from wearing a seat belt. You have a much higher chance of getting in a car accident then you do of being in the situation where you would need to use a gun. Also by concealing a weapon, and being willing to use it you are assuming the responsibilty and liability if you ever do use it.

Having a permit gives you the right to conceal, not to shoot someone. If in fact you use your weapon you have to be willing to live with the consequences. That means when you shoot someone, unless there is absolute proof that it was in self-defense you will probably find yourself in custody. Then you will be paying for a lawyer, trying to dodge a sentence in criminal court, and then there could be a civil trial where all the "victim" or next of kin has to do is win the sympathy of a jury and you'll find yourself paying out the ass. And just realize that even that guy from the ghetto might have a permit, so its just as legal for him to possess his gun. I'm just pointing out that this is all a possibility.

So even if you find yourself in a bad situation, give them your wallet....you can cancel your credit cards and any cash is cheaper than lawyers fees. Also most people overlook the option of non-lethal protection. You might think its sissy or girly to carry something such as pepper spray or a taser (some tasers even shoot like guns!), but they can be just as effective in the type of situation, and you won't incur nearly as much liability.

With all of that being said, I am not trying to say carrying a gun is wrong. That is your choice and if you are willing to assume the responsibilities then go for it. I don't have a problem with it. Just make sure you are proficient and safe with your weapon (I'm not saying any of you aren't I just feel obligated to add that), because a stray bullet is more dangerous than stray pepper spray. I would suggest practicing just how you would use it in such a scenario (i.e. shooting in a retained position). Also if you choose to pull that trigger, shoot fast and shoot to kill, by pulling your gun some thug that wouldn't have actually pulled the trigger might now feel threatened and in the moment start shooting. The killing ability is also why you chose to carry a gun and you'll have an easier time afterward if the "victim" can't take the stand.

Sorry for the long post but I think its an important topic. I hope none of you ever find yourself in such a situation.

 

[Fly Navy]

You have some solid info here, but I'd like to correct some things.

That means when you shoot someone, unless there is absolute proof that it was in self-defense you will probably find yourself in custody. Then you will be paying for a lawyer, trying to dodge a sentence in criminal court, and then there could be a civil trial where all the "victim" or next of kin has to do is win the sympathy of a jury and you'll find yourself paying out the ass.

This is going to happen regardless of a good or bad shoot. A felony stop is SOP for many police departments regarding a shooting. They sort out the details later. Civil court is also a harsh reality of our fvcked up system in these circumstances.

And just realize that even that guy from the ghetto might have a permit, so its just as legal for him to possess his gun. I'm just pointing out that this is all a possibility.

You're right, Joe Schmoe in the ghetto may have a permit. He's not who you're worried about. It's Joe Gangbanger.

So even if you find yourself in a bad situation, give them your wallet....you can cancel your credit cards and any cash is cheaper than lawyers fees.

This was the standard fallback. Just like not resisting on a hijacked aircraft. Unfortunately, there is a rise in muggers killing their victims to prevent witnesses. Carjackers will do the same. It depends where you are of course... know what kind of crime exists, etc.

Also if you choose to pull that trigger, shoot fast and shoot to kill, by pulling your gun some thug that wouldn't have actually pulled the trigger might now feel threatened and in the moment start shooting. The killing ability is also why you chose to carry a gun and you'll have an easier time afterward if the "victim" can't take the stand.[/quote]

Shoot to stop.

 

[Cobra Commander]

.
You're right, Joe Schmoe in the ghetto may have a permit. He's not who you're worried about. It's Joe Gangbanger.

Don't forget about Joe Gangbangers 10 friends who would have probably killed you if some guys in a red truck hadn't pulled up and saved your ass. These *******s never come at you alone, it's always in a group because they're cowards.

 

[C-Mike]

Unfortunately, there is a rise in muggers killing their victims to prevent witnesses. Carjackers will do the same. It depends where you are of course... know what kind of crime exists, etc.

Good comment, and unfortunately these days we are seeing more and more of this kind of garbage. I live in an area that never has shootings and where crime is very low. However about two weeks ago a young man was shot walking through a upper middle class neighborhood. Three individuals pulled up in a vehicle with their lights off, approached the victim and attempted to rob him. The victim turned and ran, and he was shot twice in the back. The thugs then rummaged through the victims pockets as he lay bleeding, took what he had, and then the purps got away. This is such an usual crime that the police dept held a community meeting, and after a week of dedicating "considerable resources" to the investigation, two of the three individuals were arrested (gangbanger types from another part of the Valley). Unfortunately the victim died en route to the hospital, however some level of justice will be served.

This type of event puts me in a bit of a quandary. Of course the answer is complex and can be based on many specifics in a given circumstance, but do you simply handover your wallet or car keys (if feeling your life is in danger), or when reaching back for your wallet do you instead feed him several rounds of your favorite JHP round? Let me add that relatively recently I completed a concealed weapons course and 32 hours of training, so I do have some limited knowledge of firearms and the implications of carrying a weapon and using deadly force (however I haven't chose to carry yet). Anyway going back to Fly's comment, and the comment about just handing over your wallet as one can easily cancel credit cards and such... Generally, I think the wisest move is to just let the f**kers take your car, wallet, whatever, as generally that is all they will do. However more and more these days there is an increase in killings under mugging/robbery type circumstances.

What to do?!?? Hand over the goods despite being in fear for your life, or assuming you have the means, and descent tactical skills, do you oppose? Of course there are a great many factors to be considered in extremely quick fashion during such an event, so the answer depends.....but what to do??

 

[nittany03]

H20, you bring up some very good points, but I want to dwell on one thing.

Shoot to stop.

Absolutely. Shortly after buying my first handgun, I read "In the Gravest Extreme" by Massad Ayoub, and did some other research into the legal aspects of armed self-defense. One of the consistent themes was that when the threat to your life ends, so does your right to respond with deadly force. You are not a police officer, and so the only instance where you are legally allowed to take someone's life is to defend your own or someone else's life from imminent threat. The threat ends, so does the legal justification. Shoot a guy who's charging you with a knife, that's one thing. Put two more rounds in the guy when he's lying there bleeding and you're now guilty of murder.

Also, WRT giving away your keys/wallet/etc., many authors make the point that the law only allows you to defend your life, not your property. Unless someone is about to get killed, maimed, or raped, you can't use deadly force. Theft or robbery doesn't cut it.

Finally, some people have mentioned that they would only consider carrying if they were in a "bad part of town." Something else that Ayoob wrote struck me. It was the idea that if you get mugged in the ghetto and shoot your assailant in self-defense, and later get prosecuted or sued, the opposing lawyer is going to ask what exactly you were doing there at 2:30 in the morning. And then opine that since you had a concealed carry permit, you decided to go out looking for trouble. In other words, being armed gives you an even greater responsibility, if able, to stay out of the "bad parts of town."

 

[Fly Navy]

Great points, Nittany.

I read "In the Gravest Extreme" by Massad Ayoub

On my bookshelf. A little out of date, but still has many valid points to it.

One of the consistent themes was that when the threat to your life ends, so does your right to respond with deadly force.

Bingo. In most areas, if you use the term "shoot to kill", the prosecutor will have a field day with you. So will the jury. How you speak when on trial can have a huge impact on whether or not you go to jail, if the shooting is in question. Remember, those "peers" on the jury, may not be in agreement of your right to carry. Also remember, that typically, juries are lowest-common denominator. When I came up for jury duty, virtually anyone with a college education and knowledge of the law was removed. It's sad, but true.

Also, WRT giving away your keys/wallet/etc., many authors make the point that the law only allows you to defend your life, not your property. Unless someone is about to get killed, maimed, or raped, you can't use deadly force. Theft or robbery doesn't cut it.

Depends where you live, actually. But, in general, is the property worth it? Also, evaluate your threat... are they going to do you harm regardless of what you give them?

Finally, some people have mentioned that they would only consider carrying if they were in a "bad part of town." Something else that Ayoob wrote struck me. It was the idea that if you get mugged in the ghetto and shoot your assailant in self-defense, and later get prosecuted or sued, the opposing lawyer is going to ask what exactly you were doing there at 2:30 in the morning. And then opine that since you had a concealed carry permit, you decided to go out looking for trouble. In other words, being armed gives you an even greater responsibility, if able, to stay out of the "bad parts of town."

Yep, unless you have a valid reason for traveling in the ghetto, wtf were you doing there in the first place?

 

[insanebikerboy]

Also, WRT giving away your keys/wallet/etc., many authors make the point that the law only allows you to defend your life, not your property. Unless someone is about to get killed, maimed, or raped, you can't use deadly force. Theft or robbery doesn't cut it.

Big, big misconception. It does vary depending on what state you live in, but the majority of the laws are worded such that forcible response is justified if attempting to stop a felony, not solely a physical harm crime.

That doesn't take away the responsibility to use the weapon correctly. For example, you see someone across the street beating someone senseless. You draw and run to the scene but the attacker sees you and takes off running, thereby ending any felony assault or other illegal act. Shoot or no? If you do, you then have become an assailant. At that point, you should have holstered your weapon and simply reported relevant details to any police or other authorities that respond. You could have tried to stop the original assailant by catching/tackling/etc him as he ran away (covered by a whole separate set of laws), but if you use your weapon at that point it's illegal.

CCW is not a license to vigilantism (sp?) or act as law enforcement, but to protect both life and property loss at the felony level

Just make sure to read your state's laws.

 

[Fly Navy]

That doesn't take away the responsibility to use the weapon correctly. For example, you see someone across the street beating someone senseless. You draw and run to the scene but the attacker sees you and takes off running, thereby ending any felony assault or other illegal act. Shoot or no? If you do, you then have become an assailant. At that point, you should have holstered your weapon and simply reported relevant details to any police or other authorities that respond. You could have tried to stop the original assailant by catching/tackling/etc him as he ran away (covered by a whole separate set of laws), but if you use your weapon at that point it's illegal.

Some states let you intervene in forcible felonies (such as Florida). Be very careful doing this. What may look like one guy beating another senseless, could be a self-defense situation. Be VERY sure of what you're getting yourself into. There are some obvious ones (a girl getting raped for example), but not all are cut and dry. I'm not saying to turn the other way like people in New York do, but just be careful. You could shoot the wrong person.

CCW is not a license to vigilantism (sp?) or act as law enforcement, but to protect both life and property loss at the felony level

Just make sure to read your state's laws.

Again, varies widely amongst states. Also, be sure of your state's retreat laws if they exist.