Flight Pay Changes

[smoke_screen]

Stay if you want but don’t try and justify it using dollars. The Navy will always lose.

And belittling us a not with the money we earn is bullshit too.

Hmm: The navy did in fact win on the $$ front until recently. Where were you in 09? Not possible to happen again?

Not belittling on pay. It’s a discussion about pay. The reaction interesting to me as most I’ve talked with in person are like, jeez yeah man it’s a crack deal, making hay while the sun shines, one step from theft, etc... lighthearted and grounded.

 

[Flash]

...The retirement? If you think the government won't renege on its obligations to service members in the next 20 years, I've got some ocean front property in Arizona I can sell you. The idea that more costs won't be transferred to the member and that you have any kind of stability an a defined benefit backed by the government is retarded....

The government hasn't reneged on its retirement obligations for its former employees at least in the past century, if not much longer. While benefits for future members might be reduced as they have with the blended retirement system the government is pretty secure ground when it comes to funding military and civil service retirements, unlike many state and local governments that do have serious financing issues when it comes to their pension obligations.

There could be some things that could be done like changing the way pensions are adjusted for inflation but that would be very difficult to pass for the military. Freezing inflation adjustments for the life of a pension is one of the worst case scenarios but again, very doubtful it would ever get past the bright idea stage.

The main point, the federal government isn't like an airline where it can or will give up its pension obligations at the drop of a hat, things will have to be pretty bad overall (semi-failed state, collapse of the dollar, etc.) in order for that to happen. We are nowhere near any of that and won't be for a long time.

 

[Jim123]

The government hasn't reneged on its retirement obligations for its former employees at least in the past century, if not much longer.

Maybe not, but the Bonus Army was a pretty near miss.

The main point, the federal government isn't like an airline where it can or will give up its pension obligations at the drop of a hat, things will have to be pretty bad overall (semi-failed state, collapse of the dollar, etc.) in order for that to happen. We are nowhere near any of that and won't be for a long time.

I dunno, we're on a pretty big financial bubble these days and we (our elected government) keep trying to make that bubble grow even bigger.


Just sayin'

 

[HAL Pilot]

Hmm: The navy did in fact win on the $$ front until recently. Where were you in 09? Not possible to happen again

2009? I was at Hawaiian making a little more than $220k/year according to my W2. Plus another $50k or so contribute to my 401k.

i made as much as my best Navy Pay year 2 at a major and quite a bit more year 3. The gap has expanded yearly since.

 

[smoke_screen]

Your timing seems to have been good. In 2009 at VP-30 the SAU was full of story after story of, got out in 98, furloughed in 02, carrier bankruptcy in 05, furloughed again in ... economy is in crisis... just piecing it together ... these guys learned significantly more humility and less hubris, and to a one would have traded AD o-5 pay for furloughed reservist pay. They may be lying... or the airlines have not always won the pay comparison vs Navy.

 

[HAL Pilot]

I was furloughed twice. 5 1/2 years of furlough. I still come out way ahead in the total income.

 

[smoke_screen]

Do you capitulate that it wasn’t so lucky for some people? Or are you saying literally that every pilot who got out made more in a civilian flying career? I mean imagine if your timing was stuck around USN from 2001-2012 vs out, got out into the current market, with a retirement and no debt from the interim?

 

[picklesuit]

Do you capitulate that it wasn’t so lucky for some people? Or are you saying literally that every pilot who got out made more in a civilian flying career? I mean imagine if your timing was stuck around USN from 2001-2012 vs out, got out into the current market, with a retirement and no debt from the interim?

Is English your first language?

 

[Deleted member 24525]

Do you capitulate that it wasn’t so lucky for some people? Or are you saying literally that every pilot who got out made more in a civilian flying career? I mean imagine if your timing was stuck around USN from 2001-2012 vs out, got out into the current market, with a retirement and no debt from the interim?

Everyone’s experience varies.
Some guys got fucked, others didn’t

 

[Flash]

Maybe not, but the Bonus Army was a pretty near miss.

No, not really. The Bonus Army was demanding early payment of what was promised to them, the government didn't renege on it.

I dunno, we're on a pretty big financial bubble these days and we (our elected government) keep trying to make that bubble grow even bigger.

A lot of things would have to go very wrong before I would worry about my military retirement, like the value of the dollar which would not affect just the value of pensions but everything. Unless you incpvesf in gold, then you are golden! And I'm pretty the ratio of our public debt the GDP isn't actually within the norm for the developed world so if we have to worry the whole world does. So again, if everything goes to shit then worry but I don't think my military pension's value would be at the top of my list of things to error about then.

 

[HAL Pilot]

I’m not capitulating anything. I’ve been at a major airline since 2001. My total pay from the airline during that time with my 5 1/2 years of furlough is still greater than the total pay I would have recieved if I was on active duty during the same time period. And my 401k will provide far more per month than a Navy retirement after I’m done.

My mistake was staying to retirement (1998) but then I was a NFO and not a pilot so I had to claw my way into The Show. Knowing what I know now, I would have bailed on the Navy in 1988 at the end of my initial commitment and started clawing then.

You only have experience with one side of the equation and are talking out of your ass in ignorance about the other side.

 

[Deleted member 24525]

@Jim123
No sense in arguing with the Koolaid...the bonus WAS a fucking miss, and has been since 2011.

 

[smoke_screen]

You only have experience with one side of the equation and are talking out of your ass in ignorance about the other side.

I’ll have to trust you. And you’re right, I don’t know first hand, but when I got out I took it seriously and was lucky to have access to a lot of helpful people in your shoes... I saw enough real live numbers and heard experiences firsthand in that process to know it’s not a given.

 

[JEFE]

I honestly think Hal's point goes a little deeper than just what a pilot is worth to the airlines. the retention update brief put out earlier claimed "But lure of higher pay/greater stability in civilian job increasingly outweighing patriotism for many" but that is dead wrong: it assumes that military service is the only way to contribute to the nation. Keeping hundreds of people safe while getting them where they need to go to contribute to our economy is undoubtedly a valuable service for the country. Much more valuable than clicking through NKO GMT training at the least. On top of that you get to live where you want, see your family more, and get a bigger paycheck? Sign me up. Same could go for folks leaving to any number of industries that add value to our nation. Not saying that the military is not important, and I'm proud of my service, but leaders should recognize that the military does not have a monopoly on patriotism and adding value to the country.

 

[PNW Flyer]

I honestly think Hal's point goes a little deeper than just what a pilot is worth to the airlines. the retention update brief put out earlier claimed "But lure of higher pay/greater stability in civilian job increasingly outweighing patriotism for many" but that is dead wrong: it assumes that military service is the only way to contribute to the nation. Keeping hundreds of people safe while getting them where they need to go to contribute to our economy is undoubtedly a valuable service for the country. Much more valuable than clicking through NKO GMT training at the least. On top of that you get to live where you want, see your family more, and get a bigger paycheck? Sign me up. Same could go for folks leaving to any number of industries that add value to our nation. Not saying that the military is not important, and I'm proud of my service, but leaders should recognize that the military does not have a monopoly on patriotism and adding value to the country.

I would go as far as saying that a phantom reason for a lot of my peers jumping ship to the civilian world is a fatigue with the current mission set.

It's hard to get pumped up about our increasingly contrived foreign entanglements, especially given the results and cost of the last 15 years of conflict... Like it or not, that is a definite factor (anecdotally) for many of the folks I've talked to.

And it's not just pilots. The majority of senior LT NFOs from my command are jumping to MBA programs, law school, corporate America--we even have a dude going to med school.