Faith

[loadtoad]

My atheism is comfortable with itself, not really caring what anyone else does, because I know it gives them comfort. And I no longer believe my atheism is a faith, because I know that science is an evolving thing, that we can try and explain most everything, but that we can't say "for sure." I'm ok with not knowing; I'm actually more comfortable knowing there's some unknown than that I'm on a set track.

I only engage in "intellectual arguments" on the subject, because I'm interested in trying to find the truths around the matter. Right now I'm focused more on the "why," than the "which, what, or how." It isn't as simple as, "religion is necessary," because ethics exist with or without a moral code.

VERY well put. I would say that is my stance. Just didn't know how to word it earlier...

 

[Harrier Dude]

I feel a bit silly chiming in since this is only my second post on the forum, but I thought I'd bring the atheist perspective to the thread. I have never been religious and I have been to church only a handful of times for weddings and extended family ceremonies and such. I have not read the Bible or any other religious texts although I'm familiar with some of the stories.

Simply put, I see faith and reason as mutually exclusive, and faith-based thinking is absolutely required for religious belief. My studies of science and the philosophy behind it leave have caused me to reject faith as a way of explaining the world. As a result, I don't see "God did it" as any better explanation than saying "I don't know how that happened yet" (for example, when questioning the creation of the universe). I do not know if the universe is completely knowable, that is a core assumption of scientific inquiry. Our advances over the past few hundred years suggest to me that it's possible.

That said, reason is a worthless weapon against a faith-based argument, and likewise faith will not convince someone who does not accept it. This is why religion debates are always so frustrating (and pointless) for both sides: how are the debaters supposed to compete when they aren't even playing the same sport?

Anyway, my perspective in short is that God and other supernatural powers are simply unnecessary to me. Hopefully, that sheds some light on the thinking of those who choose not to have religion.

You might want to read "A Skeptic's Search for God". I found it very interesting and resolved a lot of my conflicts between reason and faith. In my mind, it's kind of a reason through faith, and faith through reason sort of thing.

I believe that not only are the two not mutually exclusive, they are quite complimentary.

I am a Christian and I believe that God speaks to us in our own personal way. If you listen to the world around you, you'll hear Him. It may be today or tomorrow, or it may take you 50 years to hear Him.

Good luck to you, and Merry Christmas.

http://www.evidenceofgod.com/main_skeptics.htm

 

[BACONATOR]

Here is an interesting article that touches on faith and religion coupled with military service. It is not christian but parts of it are universal. It was an interesting article, to me especially, seeing the accommodations that are made for Jewish Sailors (both officially and privately from one sailor to another). Anyone know or serve under Captain Shelanksy?

http://www.jewishexponent.com/article/14337/

 

[MasterBates]

I am agnostic as well because of personal experience.

Have you ever fallen in love with someone who seemed so perfect, so pure, that she was an angel in your eyes?
However, after having been betrayed by this person who claimed to hear the voice of God most nights and called herself "one of the few true Christians," I am torn by my beliefs. God's angels have fallen from grace before, and it appeared to have happened right in front of my very eyes.
.

Skyward, my experience has been VERY similar.

I went to church as a kid, not every week, but more than just Christmas/Easter. I always felt there is "something/someone big" out there but not 100% sure on it.

Went thru college, never went to church other than for weddings. I had roommates and fraternity brothers that ranged from ministers to sworn atheists,

I always tried to do the right thing, and be a good person.

Fast forward to Primary. Meet a nice girl. She goes to church once-twice a month. We were dating, I would go Easter, Ash Wed, etc.. We ended up dating, engaged, got married. The whole time she played the "good church going southern girl".

Then I started seeing the hypocrisy. She would do wicked things, then blame others and go "Im a GOOD CHRISTIAN". We would go to church, and half the people there that were agreeing with the minister (she had morphed from laid back contemporary services, to fire & brimstone baptists when I was gone). But I would see their cars at the seedy strip clubs and dive bars.

Constantly used the bible to justify things she wanted (not working, no sex unless she was ovulating, etc) but she would ignore it in other areas when it suited her.

And the ass-raping I got when we divorced, even though "little miss christian" MADE PORN when I was in the gulf, has me convinced that if god exists, he hates me. Or has a really sick sense of humor.

 

[Ken_gone_flying]

I was raised Catholic by my parents and went to church nearly every Sunday from the day I was born until I turned 18 and moved out. I got my first communion and attended Sunday School from 1st grade until Junior High. Though I lived that lifestyle, I never considered myself a "real religious" person. I decided that I believed in God, and that I should live my life trying to be the best person that I can be and help others when I could. Though I am Catholic and claim myself to be, I openly admit that there are a lot of things about the religion that I don't agree with, and I don't feel guilty about that. Once I moved out and joined the Navy, I stopped going to church. It wasn't a revolt of any kind, I just became busier and it was a lot harder to find the time, not to mention there was nobody to force me to go anymore. I found myself only going when I was visiting home on leave at Christmas every year. Though I am not an avid church goer any longer and have become one of "those people" I used to make fun of for only showing up at church once a year, I still find myself praying and asking for help when I'm going through tough times. God is as big of a part of my life now as he was when I was growing up. I feel that he is always there to listen to me and help me through tough times. My new years resolution is to start going to church on a more consistant basis, even if it is not every Sunday, and excludes football season. Well, maybe I can go to Saturday night mass during those months. I guess what I'm trying to say is that 5 years ago, I would have never imagined me making this post, trying to explain how important my religion is to me and helps me in my everyday life. I know when I have children, I will raise them as my parents raised me and I can only hope that when they are old enough to make their own choices, they choose God, as I have.


-Ken

 

[statesman]

My experiences with God are much the same as Smokescreen's.

For me evidence of God comes not necessarily through the Bible but through what He has done in my life. I know how I feel when I am close to God, and I know how alone I feel when I am not close with God.

For me the Bible is a guide that tells about the character of God, it is not the gateway to God Himself. The gateway to God is Jesus.

The beauty of what Christ did on the cross is very simple in my mind. We can probably all agree that humans are inherently imperfect and if we can agree on that, and also conceptualize a creator being who is all powerful and all good. The beauty of the cross is this: that the God of the universe, who is all powerful and could destroy His creation with a mere thought, took a human form and willingly was brutalized and humilitated infront of those He created such that we could enter the kingdom of heaven. The message of Christ is love and mercy.

I also wanted to add one thing, a lot of people talk about religion, Im not a fan of religion as religion to me is institutionalize faith. I dont believe in institutions regarding faith, I believe in having a personal relationship with Christ.

Also I would ask that all those disenchanted with Christianity, or any other faith, not judge the work of God based on the acts imperfect beings, but rather judge God based on His own acts. I think you will find God, YHWH and his son Yeshua HaMashiach quite interesting and devoid of hipocrocy.

 

[Ken_gone_flying]

And the ass-raping I got when we divorced, even though "little miss christian" MADE PORN when I was in the gulf, has me convinced that if god exists, he hates me. Or has a really sick sense of humor.

Wow, thats rough. I know people just like what you described. People who use religion and the Bible as their trump card when they can but overlook other aspects when it doesn't suit their agenda. Makes me sick.

 

[raptor10]

I think a lot of people overlook the fact that the one person who did everything perfectly according to God's will (from a Christian perspective although there are corollaries in the Torah and the Koran) was betrayed by a close friend, betrayed by the people he served, and then mutilated in public before being killed.

A Christian life isn't supposed to be easy, it is supposed to be purposeful. I always likened the life to an anecdote about how a sword is made; a piece of ore is ripped from the ground and then put through a gauntlet of blistering heat and endless hammering, until out comes a tool that has the capably to protect or destroy depending on who wields it...

Extend that analogy to people and you can either believe that the death, destruction, violence, and evil in the world is random and and that the hammering and fire can give no purpose to our lives, or you could use that pain and suffering to mold yourself into something that can accomplish something.

I choose the latter.

 

[SkywardET]

Extend that analogy to people and you can either believe that the death, destruction, violence, and evil in the world is random and and that the hammering and fire can give no purpose to our lives, or you could use that pain and suffering to mold yourself into something that can accomplish something.

I choose the latter.

I have found that one doesn't need God to make that choice.


MB, your experience appears to be significantly worse than mine, and I am thankful for having such a brief experience by comparison.

 

[Son of a Grunt]

I, myself, am a devout Roman Catholic. My religion is a central part of my life. I was born and hence live in a Catholic family. I pray daily, because through faith I know that God will always give me grace that I need, if I only ask for it. I assist at Mass 1+ times a week and I go to confession 2+ times a month so that I may: gain heaven, grow in holiness, receive the strength to face any obstacle, forgiveness for my sins, and to be more closely united to Christ and his Church. I have chosen to be confirmed in my faith because the Catholic Church is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic. I have a basic knowledge of the scriptures so that I can defend the faith (though I would rather be on here the reading the Bible). I don't know about everyone else; but, the deeper that I dive into my faith the more at peace I become. I love the Trinity, the Catholic Church, Mary, the Saints, and Pope B-16. And by the way just because Catholics do believe in sin, suffering, and hell doesn't mean that we don't still have fun....

P.S. I would advise that any one who gets chance ought to listen to these guys.

 

[raptor10]

I have found that one doesn't need God to make that choice.


MB, your experience appears to be significantly worse than mine, and I am thankful for having such a brief experience by comparison.

Could you please elaborate? Not trying to be condescending but I would like to understand your point of view more fully.

To clarify some of my previous thoughts, I can believe that my life and my death will have purpose only if there exists something outside of this life.

To believe that the universe was not created requires me to believe that the entire thing is an act of randomness, and science has shown that there aren't too many random things in nature, to accept random over design is too big a leap of faith for me.

As an aside, these conversations are much better when there's a pitcher of beer and lots of hot wings...

 

[flysupertomcat]

These are my beliefs. I apologize for the structure, I’m kind of all over the place.

I am a devout Christian, I believe in Jesus Christ with everything I am. I do practice organized religion but I don’t deny that there are flaws. As a Christian, your goal in life is to be like Christ. So as Christians, we accept the fact that we are hypocrites because we will never be perfect and sinless like we believe Jesus is. You WILL see hypocrisy from SO MANY people in Church (and at some point from myself, if we went to the same church that is). It's important not to tie any particular bad inter-personal experience to faith or God because all people are flawed, God is not. Your relationship with God and obedience to him is what Christians believe gets you into heaven, not your relationships with people.

I realize there is no solid proof to give anyone that God exists, but I believe he does because I can feel it. When you have an encounter with God it is something that really is supernatural and impossible to explain. I have never "heard" God’s voice or received a message from God or had a vision from God like some will say they've had but I know I have felt the spirit. It sounds crazy, it really does, but once you experience it you will know it's something not of this world. It's just flat out incredible.

My approach, when dealing with non-Christians, is to not come off as "Holier than thou" or overbearing because I hate when people do that, myself. I try to be real with people. Christianity isn't easy, and it's definitely not all rainbows and sunshine. Just because you are a Christian doesn't mean your struggles go away or become any easier to deal with but I believe the sacrifices, trials and tribulations are nothing when compared to the reward. I can’t speak for everyone’s experiences but I have no regrets of continuing to follow Jesus. Most of the greatest moments of my life I can attribute to my faith in some way or another, and I know they’re only going to get better.

 

[Son of a Grunt]

great post

 

[BACONATOR]

My approach, when dealing with non-Christians, is to not come off as "Holier than thou" or overbearing because I hate when people do that, myself. I try to be real with people. Christianity isn't easy, and it's definitely not all rainbows and sunshine. Just because you are a Christian doesn't mean your struggles go away or become any easier to deal with but I believe the sacrifices, trials and tribulations are nothing when compared to the reward. I can’t speak for everyone’s experiences but I have no regrets of continuing to follow Jesus. Most of the greatest moments of my life I can attribute to my faith in some way or another, and I know they’re only going to get better.

Does there need to be a specific "approach" to others outside your faith? Can't we just coexist without worrying about who is what religion? Religion isn't even a subject that comes up other than maybe in conversation it comes up that I'm Jewish or they are Christian or whatever. Actual discussion of religion, I have always felt, is an unnecessary topic for those who differ in beliefs other than an explanation of the culture and history (learning about each other's beliefs but not debating them- much like this thread). This is also why, to me, it seems to be such a taboo subject in wardrooms, ready rooms and other public professional settings (or so I've been told).

Having a specific "approach" to people of other faiths implies a sort of attempt at proselytizing, which to me has always been obnoxious. Perhaps I understood your intentions wrong.

Again, no offense intended; just curious discussion.

 

[HenryF250]

I am a newbe to the forum as well, like bugsmasher so please pardon any forum messups (if there are such a thing).

I am a Believer in Jesus for many reasons, and I think there have been some great things said. For the reason of keaping it short, I will point out the one and main reason for me.

No other person can or claimed to forgive man of his sins against God. There is one issue that kept me from communion with God and that is the same issue that would keep me from Heaven as well. I had sin in my life. I am not going to bombared the post with Bible verses allthough there are many that speak to this issue, but let me just qoute 2 short ones.
Heb 9:27 "It is appointed for man to die once and then comes the judgement." When I looked at my life and understood that I had sinned in thought, word and deed I knew that day (judgement) was not going to be pretty. I learned that God saw my heart and my motives (example: God sees lust as adultery- Matthew 5:28).
This made the love of God so amazing to me. That Jesus did not die on the cross to take a few sins and forgive a pretty good guy who would fare alright on judgement day; no He loved me so much that He died on the cross to take sooooooo many sins from a guy that sins everyday and deserves Hell. So the last verse- Romans 5:8 "God demonstrated His own love for us in this: while we were still sinners Christ died for us."

Great topic: Thanks