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Faith

Hey, glad to see the various perspectives here...If, in your Christian walk, you have doubts (as I know I'm prone to do), Lee Strobel has helped me think some things out. He's a former reporter from the Chicago Sun Times, worked the Crime beat, I think. Anyway, he was an atheist before his wife became interested in Christianity. He became intrigued as well, and, in his own search, he decided to tackle the biggest questions re: Christ and Christianity he could come up with--traveling all over to interview the biggest intellects he could find (and not all Christians, either). So far, I've read "The Case for Faith" and "The Case for Christ;" I know there's also "The Case for a Creator" out as well. He asks some of the questions I myself wonder sometimes: "Why does the Bible seem to condone the killing of entire tribes (back in the OT)? Where's God in that?" and he does a good job in addressing a pet argument of critics--perceived discrepancies in the Gospel accounts. You can read Strobel, take him for good or bad, but eventually it all comes down to Faith, regardless...Wanted to pass this along, in case any of you guys ever read the Bible and feel like such questions might be too much to overcome...
 

blur

A-pool
Good thread...it is nice to see everyone's opinions...

Growing up, I didn't go to church all that often...pretty much only when my grandma could get a hold of me, as my mom was a hippie and although a professed Catholic, wasn't too disciplined in going to Mass. Sometimes we get a laugh when thinking about how different generations can be: my grandma is extremely devout(3rd order Carmelite) and my mom is as mentioned above...I guess I like to think I'm a mixture of the two...although I have strong anti-hippie tendencies (Cartman for president?)...:D

But, I do like Catholicism...I'm more of a traditional Catholic(grandmother)...there's just something about the Latin Mass...

Keep it goin!

*Edit* On the same note as Fmr...G.K. Chesterton is pretty good...I think he actually influenced C.S. Lewis in converting to Christianity...
 

vicariousrider

War Eagle!
I'm devoted to God and Jesus Christ because of one big thing: when I was trapped in my addiction to smoking, not the patch, not the gum, not cold turkey or any other method enabled me to quit. The only thing that enabled me to quit my pack a day smoking habit in the middle of a 6-month deployment aboard the submarine I was attached to was the almighty Word of God.
I believe that those who seek Him find Him, and those that ask God to reveal Himself will see who God really is.
I stand firmly with God because I know deep inside that if I don't, then Satan will wreak pure havoc on my life and lead me into places that will tear me apart.
I also believe that if anyone is to develop a relationship with God, that they have to do it by there own will. God will show a person that He is there, but ultimately, it is our decision to come to God.
Just my $.02. Great thoughts everyone!

*One more thing I just thought of - if you ask God to reveal Himself, be careful - it may come at you in a completely unexpected way that will challenge you to the core of your very being.
 

Bugsmasher

Another Non-qual SWO Ensign
I feel a bit silly chiming in since this is only my second post on the forum, but I thought I'd bring the atheist perspective to the thread. I have never been religious and I have been to church only a handful of times for weddings and extended family ceremonies and such. I have not read the Bible or any other religious texts although I'm familiar with some of the stories.

Simply put, I see faith and reason as mutually exclusive, and faith-based thinking is absolutely required for religious belief. My studies of science and the philosophy behind it leave have caused me to reject faith as a way of explaining the world. As a result, I don't see "God did it" as any better explanation than saying "I don't know how that happened yet" (for example, when questioning the creation of the universe). I do not know if the universe is completely knowable, that is a core assumption of scientific inquiry. Our advances over the past few hundred years suggest to me that it's possible.

That said, reason is a worthless weapon against a faith-based argument, and likewise faith will not convince someone who does not accept it. This is why religion debates are always so frustrating (and pointless) for both sides: how are the debaters supposed to compete when they aren't even playing the same sport?

Anyway, my perspective in short is that God and other supernatural powers are simply unnecessary to me. Hopefully, that sheds some light on the thinking of those who choose not to have religion.
 

raptor10

Philosoraptor
Contributor
I would say that I got to faith through reason, sort of I saw ripples in the water and so I believe there is something out there, causing the ripples. For me the observable evidence combined with the teachings of the bible fit together in enough places that I can say that it is probably because of God.
 

loadtoad

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
(I know you are asking why you chose religion so sorry if this isn't exactly what you were looking for. I wanted to add some diversity)

I was brought up in a Christian home, went to church and private Christian school. In my younger life I would say that I was a Christian, now I am not.

There are many reasons why the church has turned me off to religion which I will not get into on this forum. To sum it up, I have never seen more hypocricy in my life than with the churches or Christian schools I went to. So that got me to thinking... Why am I a Christian? It came down to I was born into a Christian family and not a Jewish family, Mormon family or Muslim family.

So onto my adult life I started reading more and found a man named Richard Dawkins who is a scientist and an atheist. His work is phenomenal and I agreed with a lot of what he has to say in many aspects of religion. Very interesting stuff.

What summed it up for me is: What is more believable - The "big bang theory" or an almighty being that has the power to create a universe along with you and me has always existed and he created us. Oh and he also chose not to make it a perfect universe, gave man free will as well as created small pox, aids, war, bla bla bla...

SO IT COMES DOWN TO FAITH... and I think if a creator wanted to save my soul he would have left more for me to believe then just a book and "faith."


"Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence" ~ Richard Dawkins


Hope I didn't make anybody mad. I know waaaaaaaaay too many people who go nuts over religion if you don't believe the same as them...
 

MattWSU

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
I grew up in a Christian family and went to church until about age seven. We moved up to the PNW and couldn't find a decent church, so we just stopped going.

Right now, I'm on the fence about religion. I believe in a quasi-omnipotent being but don't follow any organized religions. I just don't think any religion out there has it right, nor will one ever.

For me to finally decide it will still likely come down to faith more than just what's "true." As Raptor said, religion can definitely be a helping hand during tough times.
 
SO IT COMES DOWN TO FAITH... and I think if a creator wanted to save my soul he would have left more for me to believe then just a book and "faith."

Load, it might not be worth much from a faceless and anonymous screen name, but I promise you that we have much more than that as foundation. We have the opportunity to be in relationship with the creator of the universe. It looks and sounds like empty words, I understand. I am telling you what I know as truth with my life as the basis. In the New Testament, it says that faith itself is a gift from God. So, I can understand your reluctance (as I once shared the sentiment with a great deal of passion) to accept the concept of faith... it seems as though God has not given it to you yet. So I would ask you to please realize its place within the scope of the human condition.

Bugsmasher,

You have obviously sought truth, which I respect- and you are thus fighting the good fight. It is out there. Ultimately, for me, reason did in fact lead me to God, so I cannot agree that they are mutually exclusive. I would be happy to elaborate if you are truly interested... but I think that a "mutually exclusive" discussion would take this thread far from its intended course. There are other concepts that I believe are mutually exclusive (squarely so) with respect to God.


Thank you for your candor and allowing me to share.
 

red_ryder

Well-Known Member
None
I myself am agnostic.

For background, I didn't really have a religious upbringing. My parents took me to different churches a couple times, to expose me to the idea and see if I wanted to keep going to any; I didn't.

I always considered the bible as a kind of Aesop's Fables, collection of stories with morality play. It's mostly good stuff, just elaborating on the ten commandments, which are pretty good too.

So, since I think that a bunch of dudes got together and wrote all those books and not God, I can't take it for absolute truth. Cause we all know people are not perfect. And the bible at least was written in the context of the world two thousand years ago, and some things are a little different.

I was once told that the jewish word for "sin" is most accurately translated as "mistake". That's how I prefer to think about it. Not necessarily things that will send you to hell (maybe a living hell) but things that tend to screw things up for you if you do 'em.

As for the truth of a god, I think the universe is so crazy that if there is a god as such, it's so abstract and different than what we could ever imagine, that I won't try to "anticipate his orders". I think it doesn't matter too much and if you live a good life, try to do the right thing, and try to make things run smoother and nicer in the world, it will not only benefit you, but if there's a god...hey, he can't fault you for trying.
 

jus2mch

MOTIVATOR
Contributor
Not an attempt at religion-bashing at ALL, but not true.

Religion for me, while not a huge part of my life, has always been a saving grace for me when I'm feeling down. Sometimes it is the only thing in this world that can help you.

So Jews don't believe that Jesus existed?

Sorry, I didn't read close enough. Fmr1833 cleared this question up already.
 

SkywardET

Contrarian
I am agnostic as well because of personal experience.

Have you ever fallen in love with someone who seemed so perfect, so pure, that she was an angel in your eyes?

I had never been deeply religious. I went to church as a young boy because my grand-aunt would take me. When she became too sick to take me any longer, I had no one to take me and faith became the least of my priorities. In high school I met an inspirational girl who rekindled my faith by virtue of her strong faith.

However, after having been betrayed by this person who claimed to hear the voice of God most nights and called herself "one of the few true Christians," I am torn by my beliefs. God's angels have fallen from grace before, and it appeared to have happened right in front of my very eyes.

No God which I used as a source of strength and courage and perserverence would allow such a thing, so where did those traits come from? I have found that they have come from within me, and I needed only an excuse to summon them. God was my excuse, but now I realize that I don't need Him.

Faith had always been a safety net to get me through rough times, and now that I'm without it I feel much more alive.
 

The Stoic

New Member
Either you believe that material is sovereign or God is sovereign. Either the world was just always there so the tree outside my house is God or it was actually created by something else that is above material.

Red_Ryder - Your points are good but keep in mind that if one believes in God it is not a matter of right or wrong but of being in relationship with God. Our acts can mirror God but will never be like God, we will always fail and that is where Jesus comes in to play.

SkywardET - Sure you feel free without God, you are not bound by a moral obligation. Your issues become a matter of intellectual justifications instead of absolute truths. I ask that you don't based something so important on one flawed person(s) but instead on your personal search for truth, spiritually can not be vicarious.

Think about why you have such opposition to Christianity, why such strong feelings against those who believe?

Everyone is a hypocrite, don't look for perfect people, look for a perfect God.

I leave you with this -

"To sustain the belief that there is no God, atheism has to demonstrate infinite knowledge. Because their declaration is tantamount to saying, "I have infinite knowledge that there is no being in existence with infinite knowledge."

- Ravi Zacharias (if you have doubts about faith please check him out on the web)

Edit- sorry if this turned into a argumentative post, just wanted people to see the intellectual side to religion and give a real basis for ideas. These are of course my opinions and those of some apologists, but I believe they represent truths behind the faith. Thank everyone for being mature on this thread and hope I didn't jack it into an argument. Thanks for the heads up HH-60H.
 

HH-60H

Manager
pilot
Contributor
The OP asked for people to share their views and to specifically avoid debate. Let's keep it that way.
 

eddie

Working Plan B
Contributor
However, after having been betrayed by this person who claimed to hear the voice of God most nights and called herself "one of the few true Christians," I am torn by my beliefs.

Context is everything. What is the context of faith in YOUR life; this is how we establish what I think of as the ground state.

"To sustain the belief that there is no God, atheism has to demonstrate infinite knowledge. Because their declaration is tantamount to saying, "I have infinite knowledge that there is no being in existence with infinite knowledge."

For the faithful, the ground state is faith. For atheists the ground state is that there is nothing.

The quote Stoic provided is what I used to think was the best argument that my own atheism was faith, but that was only because I had contextualized my "faith" as a virtual crusade to "enlighten" my elementary school peers in reality. The idea that you KNOW something, and that only you seem to be able to educate everyone else is very empowering when you are a child (and yes, for the record, I was "that kid," the nerd, and the fat kid :)).

I grew up going to our local Episcopal Church sometimes with my mother, who goes more for "spiritual reasons" than a desire to adhere to scripture. Dad, in as many words, "didn't care, or feel the need."

When I was five, I was on an Indian Guides trip fishing with Dad. We'd caught and gutted a fish before, and I was fine with it because I was hungry and I wanted to eat it. :tongue2_1 No big deal; death was part of life. But today, as somebody else's Dad started to gut a fish, and I remarked that I liked fishing, but it sucked for the fish. And he said, "Well, God put fish on Earth so we could eat them," I'm sure which was to try and make me feel better about the whole thing.

Instead, having been kind of iffy on the arbitrary and, "because I said so" nature that I'd experienced God in pre-school and the occasional Sunday school I'd attended, it was then and there that I was sure that even if God WAS real, that He was mean and I wanted nothing to do with Him. If the sole purpose of the fish was to be eaten, then what was my purpose according to God? The absolute-ness of it was disconcerting, NOT comforting. I had not been well educated in "God's love," so all I saw were a bunch of arbitrary rules and inconsistancies, and now mandatory death and suffering! :eek: Later in the day, when Dad and I started to gut the fish I caught, I just lost it. I mean, when you are at a stage where you still identiy with your toys and stuffed animals, the fish writhing there can be pretty damn human. In hindsight, the whole thing is fairly amusing to me.

I don't think your first interaction or understanding confines you to a given ground state, but I think the strongest one does.

Today, I'm much more tempered in my lack of religion. In fact, I think anyone who runs around publically decrying religion is wasting their breath, preaching to the choir, or exploiting the huge market in anti-religion (the 3rd option I've no qualms with).

My atheism is comfortable with itself, not really caring what anyone else does, because I know it gives them comfort. And I no longer believe my atheism is a faith, because I know that science is an evolving thing, that we can try and explain most everything, but that we can't say "for sure." I'm ok with not knowing; I'm actually more comfortable knowing there's some unknown than that I'm on a set track.

I only engage in "intellectual arguments" on the subject, because I'm interested in trying to find the truths around the matter. Right now I'm focused more on the "why," than the "which, what, or how." It isn't as simple as, "religion is necessary," because ethics exist with or without a moral code. Morals just simplify things. And it's dishonest to say, "Religion kills more people than it helps," because a) that's simply non-quantifiable, and b) people are gonna kill people no matter what.

Propstop, if that wasn't what you were looking for I apologize, but I hope it was in some ways useful.
 
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