COVID-19

[SlickAg]

This story never got (from what I saw) very widespread coverage, but it ties in nicely with the CHYCAPS discussion on another thread.

No ‘Negative’ News: How China Censored the Coronavirus (Published 2020)

Thousands of internal directives and reports reveal how Chinese officials stage-managed what appeared online in the early days of the outbreak.

www.nytimes.com

Let us also not forget what they do to people who question the approved narrative.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1343546351003561985

 

[Hair Warrior]

@Spekkio - Shack!

At what point do we acknowledge the scientific indicators that the virus was likely manipulated in a lab environment (called “gain of function”) at the Wuhan BSL4 for research purposes? It may never happen, because the U.S. NIH had given grant money to Wuhan to research bat coronaviruses, so the blame is not singular. If one were a cynic, one might think that the NIH thought the research had value to the scientific community but was too risky to conduct on U.S. soil, so it outsourced it to a country willing to take on the risks/ be nontransparent if anything happened.

I'm more than a little concerned to see an intelligence officer, of all people, trafficking in debunked conspiracy theories.

University of Minnesota Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy: "'Exactly zero' evidence COVID-19 came from a lab"
Cornell University: "Evidence of COVID’s natural origin mounts even as conspiracy theory about Chinese lab refuses to die"
National Institute of Health: "Genomic Study Points to Natural Origin of COVID-19"

"Debunked" is a stronger word than the word I used ("likely") - nothing's been completely debunked yet or eliminated from possibility yet.

Ha, wow. So this opinion piece (which it is) discounts the possibility of an accidental release of a test environment sample because Dr. Le Duc of Galveston thinks that Dr. Shi Zhengli of Wuhan (former director of the Wuhan Virology Institute) was a swell lady, and seemed real reputable when he heard her speak at conferences.

Here are some alternative viewpoints:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0166354220300528
"we identified a peculiar furin-like cleavage site in the Spike protein of the 2019-nCoV, lacking in the other SARS-like CoVs"

https://www.newsweek.com/controvers...may-have-started-coronavirus-pandemic-1500503

‘Growing body of evidence’ shows COVID-19 leaked from Chinese lab: US official

US national security adviser Matthew Pottinger is doubling down on the theory that COVID-19 leaked from a Chinese government-run lab in Wuhan. Pottinger, a staunch critic of Beijing, allegedly made…

nypost.com

Any of the wet-market-believers ready to consider that there is a moderate chance SARS-COV2 wasn’t entirely naturally occurring?

 

[HokiePilot]

‘Growing body of evidence’ shows COVID-19 leaked from Chinese lab: US official

US national security adviser Matthew Pottinger is doubling down on the theory that COVID-19 leaked from a Chinese government-run lab in Wuhan. Pottinger, a staunch critic of Beijing, allegedly made…

nypost.com

Any of the bat-eater-believers ready to consider that there is a moderate chance that SARS-COV2 wasn’t entirely naturally occurring?

HW. I have the feeling that you have come to the conclusion that the virus was man made and you are looking for things to justify your opinion.

That article starts off by making a glaring error. Matthew Pottinger is the Deputy National Security Advisor, not the National Security Advisor. The entire article is just saying that the Daily Mail reported that he said something on a Zoom call.

What is the evidence to suggest that it was man made?

The US has gotten in trouble before when the the intelligence community has put the conclusion before the evidence. We should be careful to not make that mistake again.

There is plenty of reason to criticize the Chinese government. A man made creation of the novel coronavirus doesn't appear to be one of them.

 

[AllAmerican75]

HW. I have the feeling that you have come to the conclusion that the virus was man made and you are looking for things to justify your opinion.

That article starts off by making a glaring error. Matthew Pottinger is the Deputy National Security Advisor, not the National Security Advisor. The entire article is just saying that the Daily Mail reported that he said something on a Zoom call.

What is the evidence to suggest that it was man made?

The US has gotten in trouble before when the the intelligence community has put the conclusion before the evidence. We should be careful to not make that mistake again.

There is plenty of reason to criticize the Chinese government. A man made creation of the novel coronavirus doesn't appear to be one of them.

I don't think he's saying it's manmade, but that the idea that it came from a wet market located in conspicuous proximity to a Level IV medical research facility which was known to specialize in both coronavirus research AND PLA bioweapons R&D seems a bit silly given the evidence. Why would the PRC seek to cover up its existence even after it spread around the world, or cover up reports in 2019 and 2018 concerning failure within the containment processes in the facility, and erase scientists and doctors from existence who were experts on coronaviruses and bat diseases. As already made clear, the hypothesis that SARS-COV2 is entirely manmade is preposterous since the virus has been shown to originate natively in bat popuations.

AAAS

science.sciencemag.org

Inside the Chinese lab poised to study world's most dangerous pathogens - Nature

Maximum-security biolab is part of plan to build network of BSL-4 facilities across China.

www.nature.com

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/04/14/state-department-cables-warned-safety-issues-wuhan-lab-studying-bat-coronaviruses/

Origins of SARS-CoV-2 | Jamie Metzl

NOTE: This post was originally published on April 16, 2020 and has been updated regularly. Many people have reached out to me questioning the assertion I ha ...

jamiemetzl.com

 

[Hair Warrior]

HW. I have the feeling that you have come to the conclusion that the virus was man made and you are looking for things to justify your opinion.

That article starts off by making a glaring error. Matthew Pottinger is the Deputy National Security Advisor, not the National Security Advisor. The entire article is just saying that the Daily Mail reported that he said something on a Zoom call.

What is the evidence to suggest that it was man made?

The US has gotten in trouble before when the the intelligence community has put the conclusion before the evidence. We should be careful to not make that mistake again.

There is plenty of reason to criticize the Chinese government. A man made creation of the novel coronavirus doesn't appear to be one of them.

If you check out previous articles I posted, there’s a prominent (i.e. Nobel laureate) French evolutionary biologist who discovered telltale gene manipulation in SARS-COV2 which is consistent with “gain of function” research - where you take a natural virus into a lab, alter it genetically to give it amplifying ability to do whatever (in this case, it appears its transmissability was enhanced, per the Nobel scientist) and then proceed to study it.

1) This is important because, if true, the world needs to have a frank conersation about whether “gain of function” research is safe to be permitted in the future, by anyone.

2) This is important because, if true, the world needs to have a frank conversation about what to do with regimes that cover up and lie about massive (i.e. world-altering) failures that are a direct result of state-run incompetence, and not a merely natural disaster.

Right now, I’m not seeing those conversations. I see conversations about mask-wearing, hand-washing, outdoor dining, and in-home gathering (all of which are valid to discuss) but not enough frank talk about why and how this pandemic happened.

 

[BigRed389]

If you check out previous articles I posted, there’s a prominent (i.e. Nobel laureate) French evolutionary biologist who discovered telltale gene manipulation in SARS-COV2 which is consistent with “gain of function” research - where you take a natural virus into a lab, alter it genetically to give it amplifying ability to do whatever (in this case, it appears its transmissability was enhanced, per the Nobel scientist) and then proceed to study it.

1) This is important because, if true, the world needs to have a frank conersation about whether “gain of function” research is safe to be permitted in the future, by anyone.

2) This is important because, if true, the world needs to have a frank conversation about what to do with regimes that cover up and lie about massive (i.e. world-altering) failures that are a direct result of state-run incompetence, and not a merely natural disaster.

Right now, I’m not seeing those conversations. I see conversations about mask-wearing, hand-washing, outdoor dining, and in-home gathering (all of which are valid to discuss) but not enough frank talk about why and how this pandemic happened.

If and when there is a plurality of evidence that is broadly accepted by the scientific community that supports COVID being tied to man made research efforts, all for it. I’ll grab the pitchfork and torch right with you.

At the moment, that doesn’t exist. It’s quite possible and probable that Chinese recalcitrance to cooperate with the WHO and CDC has impeded investigatory efforts to ascertain that.

As much as I strongly suspect that China at least with malicious indifference let this spread in the world, considering that the West has been calling it China virus and Kung Flu and otherwise lashing out at them, I’m also not terribly surprised that our peer superpower competitor doesn’t really give a flying fuck about cooperating with what we want as far as answers.

My opinion is that it is irrelevant at the moment whether or not it was man made or influenced.

China is already guilty of letting it spread and impeding efforts in the interest of global health - whether maliciously or through incompetence. We can hold them accountable through economic measures - but they are already being smart about gaining good will by assisting emerging markets.

The better focus for our time and energy should be fixing the problem of right now and planning on how to deal with the next one. Manmade or not. Deliberate or accidental. State sponsored or terrorist act.

Infectious disease specialists have been warning about just this kind of thing for years and COVID is a warning shot in that we are quite fortunate it primarily kills the elderly. Something like the Spanish Flu which also took out the young and healthy will fuck us up even worse, and if it does occur, and we are not able to deal with it while other nations are, it will likely be the end of the US as a superpower.

 

[HokiePilot]

If you check out previous articles I posted, there’s a prominent (i.e. Nobel laureate) French evolutionary biologist who discovered telltale gene manipulation in SARS-COV2 which is consistent with “gain of function” research - where you take a natural virus into a lab, alter it genetically to give it amplifying ability to do whatever (in this case, it appears its transmissability was enhanced, per the Nobel scientist) and then proceed to study it.

1) This is important because, if true, the world needs to have a frank conersation about whether “gain of function” research is safe to be permitted in the future, by anyone.

2) This is important because, if true, the world needs to have a frank conversation about what to do with regimes that cover up and lie about massive (i.e. world-altering) failures that are a direct result of state-run incompetence, and not a merely natural disaster.

Right now, I’m not seeing those conversations. I see conversations about mask-wearing, hand-washing, outdoor dining, and in-home gathering (all of which are valid to discuss) but not enough frank talk about why and how this pandemic happened.

You were the person that posted that NY Post article. It was nothing but clickbait. There was no new evidence in it. I find it amazing that you think that would convince anyone who read more than the title.

I'm open to hearing evidence about the origins. That is important to prevent another pandemic. But right now, we rightly need to concentrate on fighting the one in front of us.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

You were the person that posted that NY Post article. It was nothing but clickbait. There was no new evidence in it. I find it amazing that you think that would convince anyone who read more than the title.

I'm open to hearing evidence about the origins. That is important to prevent another pandemic. But right now, we rightly need to concentrate on fighting the one in front of us.

“We need to concentrate on the one in front of us”? That’s like a football fan telling another fan he shouldn’t discuss a game two weeks away because we need to focus on this week’s game.

 

[sevenhelmet]

“We need to concentrate on the one in front of us”? That’s like a football fan telling another fan he shouldn’t discuss a game two weeks away because we need to focus on this week’s game.

That also implies we're focusing on this week's game, not spending all week arguing over whether there is a game, or whether we should wear team jerseys, or whether we're even football fans.

?

 

[BigRed389]

That also implies we're focusing on this week's game, not spending all week arguing over whether there is a game, or whether we should wear team jerseys, or whether we're even football fans.

?

If we're sticking with the "fans" analogy, what the "fans" do is about as helpful to what the players (those working on vaccines, health care workers, etc) in the game get done as actual football fans.

 

[sevenhelmet]

If we're sticking with the "fans" analogy, what the "fans" do is about as helpful to what the players (those working on vaccines, health care workers, etc) in the game get done as actual football fans.

I'm with you. Plenty of folks with bandwidth and presumably, expertise, to investigate the origins of this pandemic. Though those with expertise are arguably players, or at least league employees in this analogy.

But if we ever do have an answer as to the real origins of the pandemic, would a majority of people accept it in this (dis)informational environment? I venture to say not likely.

 

[HokiePilot]

“We need to concentrate on the one in front of us”? That’s like a football fan telling another fan he shouldn’t discuss a game two weeks away because we need to focus on this week’s game.

Fine, the talk about the origins of this virus is productive. But it is hardly surprising that people are talking about the closest alligator to the boat.

 

[sevenhelmet]

Fine, the talk about the origins of this virus is productive. But it is hardly surprising that people are talking about the closest alligator to the boat.

If there is an alligator... or if we're even in a boat...



OK, I'll stop trolling everyone's analogies now.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

If there is an alligator... or if we're even in a boat...



OK, I'll stop trolling everyone's analogies now.

I’m not at risk for alligators. Just being in a boat is more dangerous for me.

 

[sevenhelmet]

I’m not at risk for alligators. Just being in a boat is more dangerous for me.

Boy, can I relate...