Applying to the March 2013 Board

[AirGuy]

As an officer already holding a college degree, the GI bill probably isn't going to be your cup of tea. The best thing you could do is pass it down to a family member.

You should also look closer into the benefits. The GI bill will provide a free education if you attend a public university in-state. Otherwise, it's capped at $18k for the academic year. Also, your BAH goes down to E-5 with dependents. That helps for sure, but it's probably not going to be free for graduate school.

As for cutting tuition assistance, I have heard from multiple sources that it's not widely used by operational units anyway. Even online distance learning programs have certain times where you are required to be on the web to "attend" lectures and whatnot. Now picture that you are over 8 hours off from the university's local time and they want you online at what is 0200 your time, or you have military duties to perform during that scheduled period, or you go on a mission, or whatever. Or maybe the member wants to do a technical degree but can't do the labs, so he just holds off to use the GI bill. It sucks they are cutting it for those who have been able to use it successfully, but if those accounts of the numbers are true I understand the reasoning and it's more alarming as a news headline than anything else.

Those who attempt PACE courses in the sub force have a very high rate of not finishing, with the XO doing a lot of explaining on why the member shouldn't have to pay it back.

I want to do some language courses. I heard that you could take courses right on base / on a carrier, for free. But I think this applies to courses taught by the Navy's school. So this might still apply even after they cut tuition assistance.

 

[afsf1]

Point 1: looking at O-1 pay is short-sighted. For starters my O-1 pay with BAH was $35kish in South Carolina, plenty to live off of as a single guy as BAH was lower than the national average for the area. Plus you don't pay taxes on a good chunk of your pay. Oh and I got oral surgery without paying a dime. So you found an internship that will cost-adjust to your rent, pay you 2x O-1 pay and give full benefits? Where can I get one?

Married with kids would be harder for sure, but you get promoted in 2 years and again 2 years after that. My gross monthly pay is now over $8k, I only pay taxes on $5.5-6k of it, I still stay in the 15% tax bracket, and that's not with any nuke bonuses. I've worried about a lot of things since commissioning but not money.

As for point 2, it's a pain and takes a special woman to deal with it. For sure there are more good women that will want nothing to do with that lifestyle than there are who will. But when the right one comes along you do what you gotta do to make it work. The bigger pain is when you want to buy a house but can't because you move every 3 years or so, which would put you upside down on it if you did buy. That devalues the pay listed above quite a bit because you don't accumulate an asset - property - like most people do.

Point 3: It is a long commitment but if you're passionate about it then it's not as scary as it seems.

1- Many of the big 'silicon valley' companies pay starting salaries that are equivalent to an O-3 with 5 years in (I ran the #s, this was including the tax deduction, high BAH, etc.). I was paid just under 6k/month, as were many of my peers...as interns. I am not insinuating that officer pay is not enough to live comfortably; however more money is always better, and having grown up dirt poor it is always something that is on my mind.

2- Besides the time away from home, if I were to have dependents a potentially dangerous line of work would likely seem much less appealing than it is to a single man who doesn't have any *real* considerations besides himself (and possibly his parents).

3- I would be willing to bet even the most gung-ho on this board has had cold feet, if even for a few seconds, prior to signing.

Don't get me wrong, I am as pumped as anyone for OCS, and would honestly be shocked if I end up turning this down.

 

[Spekkio]

If you have the degree and skillset for a big silicon valley company, yea they pay a lot. But realize that doesn't represent the majority of employment opportunities; the median income is somewhere around $50-60k, which puts that internship higher than most people earn in their full-time jobs.

 

[Spekkio]

I want to do some language courses. I heard that you could take courses right on base / on a carrier, for free. But I think this applies to courses taught by the Navy's school. So this might still apply even after they cut tuition assistance.

Rarely will the Navy pay for schooling just because you desire it; it typically has to serve the needs of the Navy somehow.

Additionally, there is a lot more to do professionally as a JO other than fly for a few hours and play Xbox and a lot more qualifications to earn. Your professional learning doesn't stop after you get a warfare device.

I'm just cautioning you that if your expectation is that you're going to roll into a carrier (if you are even stationed on one) as an O-2 and start taking language courses on the Navy's dime, your expectations might not match reality.

I'm a spouse. Admittedly, PenguinGuy is a SWO but that is irrelevant in this conversation. Any argument that your girlfriend/boyfriend or fiancé/fiancée can come up with as to why you should not follow your dream can be pretty easily refuted. Everyone is capable of being a successful milspouse if they are willing to work at it.

I am glad that you are committed, but deriding women who choose not to live this lifestyle is a bit narrow-minded. Disregarding all the missed holidays, birthdays, and anniversaries, or the time she was so sick she could barely get out of bed and I couldn't do a thing to help because I was at sea... unless the woman works in one of a select few career fields, she must sacrifice all of her career goals for the Navy. My wife has no hope of gaining higher than an entry-mid level position with comparable pay because her job was not transferrable when we got married. A choice she made, but not one that many women would make. And that's completely okay. If a relationship is to be 100% equal, neither partner's career goals are supposed to be more important than the other's. So if those career goals are outside the select careers that are transferrable, don't include housewife, or applying for $3o-40k admin assistant type jobs every 3 years or so, then the Navy just isn't going to work out.

 

[exNavyOffRec]

1- Many of the big 'silicon valley' companies pay starting salaries that are equivalent to an O-3 with 5 years in (I ran the #s, this was including the tax deduction, high BAH, etc.). I was paid just under 6k/month, as were many of my peers...as interns. I am not insinuating that officer pay is not enough to live comfortably; however more money is always better, and having grown up dirt poor it is always something that is on my mind.

2- Besides the time away from home, if I were to have dependents a potentially dangerous line of work would likely seem much less appealing than it is to a single man who doesn't have any *real* considerations besides himself (and possibly his parents).

3- I would be willing to bet even the most gung-ho on this board has had cold feet, if even for a few seconds, prior to signing.

Don't get me wrong, I am as pumped as anyone for OCS, and would honestly be shocked if I end up turning this down.

1. money isn't everything, I didn't grow up dirt poor but life was a struggle, I have seen and know many people who don't have a lot of money, but they are happy, they have realized that things can only bring limited happiness, some learn this sooner than others, I was not a "sooner" person. There is a balance I am sure you will find yours.

2. I am probably in the minority on this but I have known more people who have died that were not in the military/non military related accidents than were in the military.

3. agree, I think everyone has a "oh shit" moment, or hours, or days...

 

[AirGuy]

Rarely will the Navy pay for schooling just because you desire it; it typically has to serve the needs of the Navy somehow.

Additionally, there is a lot more to do professionally as a JO other than fly for a few hours and play Xbox and a lot more qualifications to earn. Your professional learning doesn't stop after you get a warfare device.

I'm just cautioning you that if your expectation is that you're going to roll into a carrier (if you are even stationed on one) as an O-2 and start taking language courses on the Navy's dime, your expectations might not match reality.

Not quite my expectation. I was expecting to take just 1 course for an entire year. Learning languages is a hobby of mine. So instead of xbox (which is pretty boring...), I would be listening and trying to work on my speech. I used pimsleurs during my school commute and it was good as far as speaking. I would really love to take it to the next level and learn professionally. I would be taking classes in college but the priority is to complete A major first. Not to mention, I don't have the means to pay for them. I suppose you are right that the Navy will not really have a use for it. But on the other hand, you will have a more educated American Citizen, which is awesome. Also, a ROTC friend of mine told me that he is actually getting paid to learn Arabic and that the Navy pays for other sailors who know certain languages. This is not the reason I'm do it, but just saying that the Navy must have some use for the languages to have that incentive.

 

[Spekkio]

2. I am probably in the minority on this but I have known more people who have died that were not in the military/non military related accidents than were in the military.

There are 1,456,862 active duty servicemembers; 6673 have died in Afghanistand and Iraq combined. Only 22 of those fatalities in Iraq were Navy. Of those, two were Officers and one of them was a suicide, the other was a non-hostile fatality. In Afghanistan, 96 were Navy; 13 were Officers.

 

[zeagle]

Not quite my expectation. I was expecting to take just 1 course for an entire year. Learning languages is a hobby of mine. So instead of xbox (which is pretty boring...), I would be listening and trying to work on my speech. I used pimsleurs during my school commute and it was good as far as speaking. I would really love to take it to the next level and learn professionally. I would be taking classes in college but the priority is to complete A major first. Not to mention, I don't have the means to pay for them. I suppose you are right that the Navy will not really have a use for it. But on the other hand, you will have a more educated American Citizen, which is awesome. Also, a ROTC friend of mine told me that he is actually getting paid to learn Arabic and that the Navy pays for other sailors who know certain languages. This is not the reason I'm do it, but just saying that the Navy must have some use for the languages to have that incentive.

Yes the Navy will pay you a certain monthly allowance if you know a particular language. For some instances it may be under a $100; I think Spanish is one categorized as such, but for other languages it could be hundreds of dollars. Languages like Farsi, Chinese (Mandarin and Cantonese), Russian, Arabic, etc are ones that pay good, but also the MOST difficult to learn. In order to get paid you need qualifying scores on a DLAB test in reference to whatever language; you pretty much have to be quite proficient to get paid. You are not going to get to the level of proficiency with some online class, it generally takes many months, even years of complete immersion to get to these levels, or a run at the DLI in Monterey if your lucky enough to pull those orders.

 

[AirGuy]

Yes the Navy will pay you a certain monthly allowance if you know a particular language. For some instances it may be under a $100; I think Spanish is one categorized as such, but for other languages it could be hundreds of dollars. Languages like Farsi, Chinese (Mandarin and Cantonese), Russian, Arabic, etc are ones that pay good, but also the MOST difficult to learn. In order to get paid you need qualifying scores on a DLAB test in reference to whatever language; you pretty much have to be quite proficient to get paid. You are not going to get to the level of proficiency with some online class, it generally takes many months, even years of complete immersion to get to these levels, or a run at the DLI in Monterey if your lucky enough to pull those orders.

Yea. . . but like I said, it's a hobby. I'm not doing it for pay. It's not a big deal though if I can't take them.

 

[zeagle]

Yea. . . but like I said, it's a hobby. I'm not doing it for pay. It's not a big deal though if I can't take them.

Im sure you will have no trouble taking an online class here or there in your off time. It's being a full time student that becomes the problem. Once you start getting paid go buy a Rosetta Stone package, or whatever works, and in your free time do some work. I used Rocket Languages for Mandarin and used to drive to base in the mornings blasting Mandarin in my car form my iPod. Needless to say, after about 6 months of doing this, you really do start to learn. I picked up a lot. More productive in my opinion than listening to some talk show garbage on the radio, lol.

 

[AirGuy]

Im sure you will have no trouble taking an online class here or there in your off time. It's being a full time student that becomes the problem. Once you start getting paid go buy a Rosetta Stone package, or whatever works, and in your free time do some work. I used Rocket Languages for Mandarin and used to drive to base in the mornings blasting Mandarin in my car form my iPod. Needless to say, after about 6 months of doing this, you really do start to learn. I picked up a lot. More productive in my opinion than listening to some talk show garbage on the radio, lol.

I've heard Rocket Languages was good for Spanish. How was it for Mandarin?

I used Pimsleurs and it was a really good program (best i've done) as far as flow and also for pronunciation. My high school had Rosetta Stone for free. But to be honest, it was horrible. Lots of content but I'd rather just learn content in class and improve my flow with Pimsleurs and real life practice. Best part is that Pimsleurs has been around for a long time and they are available for free at the library / online.

Haha. Totally agree with the last sentence there

 

[PenguinGal]

Spekkio, I don't know how to quote while typing on my phone so please forgive my lack of exact wording. I was not deriding women who don't want to be milspouses. I was saying that arguments that people have for not wanting to do so can be properly and logically refuted and reasoned out to be, in most cases found to be not the huge stumbling blocks that they appear to be. Everyone is capable of it, some just flourish more than others.

As for careers? I stand by the fact that it can work. It might meaan getting really creative at times and maybe doing more years of entry level work than desired but it can work. post stalk me to see comments from spouses when I was freaking out a few months ago about my job and a PCs. There were some great responses. As to your comments about Admin work and sahw being the only option other than a select few fields that are portable, what do you define as portable? I know my fellow spouses who are architects, engineers, historians, and chemists would argue that those aren't typical fields for portability but that they have made them work.

Yes, it sucks to be home alone for holidays, anniversaries, even the big stuff I haven't experienced yet involving kids. There are plenty of civilian jobs that leave spouses alone for those too. Many of them even involve danger! Just ask my cousin,the wife of a highway patrol officer who spends plenty of time alone wondering if her husband will make it off of his shift without incident.

I get what you are saying, it can be a crappy lonely life as a spouse at times. But it can be a crappy lonely time whether or not your partner is military. Equality can work with military but it means that creativity and sacrifice need to happen too. Just because I support my husband fully doesn't mean he always gets his way without any compromise. And same goes for me.

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk 2

 

[exNavyOffRec]

There are 1,456,862 active duty servicemembers; 6673 have died in Afghanistand and Iraq combined. Only 22 of those fatalities in Iraq were Navy. Of those, two were Officers and one of them was a suicide, the other was a non-hostile fatality. In Afghanistan, 96 were Navy; 13 were Officers.

I wonder how this compares to vehicle related deaths?

 

[Spekkio]

As for careers? I stand by the fact that it can work. It might meaan getting really creative at times and maybe doing more years of entry level work than desired but it can work. post stalk me to see comments from spouses when I was freaking out a few months ago about my job and a PCs. There were some great responses. As to your comments about Admin work and sahw being the only option other than a select few fields that are portable, what do you define as portable? I know my fellow spouses who are architects, engineers, historians, and chemists would argue that those aren't typical fields for portability but that they have made them work.

My point is that your definition of "can work" involves career sacrifices that many people are not willing to make. Deciding to date and marry a servicemember is a personal choice that involves weighing one's priorities. I have two aunts who told their prospective husbands come reenlistment time that it's them or the Navy; one had a long and happy marriage (she passed away not too long ago) and the other is still happily married. The latter has a master's in marketing, owns her own business and wouldn't have been able to pick up and move that every 3-5 years. Starting her own business was a career goal when they met that she wasn't willing to give up and wasn't compatible with the Navy. I'm sure you can find personal anecdotes of people who are satisfied with moving their employment with their military spouse; you can equally find those who are frustrated by it. As neither of us has access to data/surveys on the matter, pointing out personal anecdotes doesn't really prove anything.

The "admin work" comment was an extreme example, but moving every 3 years means being unpromotable in a lot of careers, taking a step back to square one every move in some, and simply unmanageable in others. Additionally, the servicemember can be stationed in an area where the spouse's industry just doesn't exist, even if it's his last choice on the list.

Just ask my cousin,the wife of a highway patrol officer who spends plenty of time alone wondering if her husband will make it off of his shift without incident.

My father is a corrections officer; he was home in some capacity on every holiday. I never opened up Christmas or birthday presents without him. They 'only' work 8 hours a day unless they volunteer for overtime, he gets overtime pay for working on holidays and triple his hourly salary if he works past 8 hours. He worked many 60 hour weeks when I was a teenager because my mom went to graduate school, and that's expensive. I would kill for only spending 60 hours a week on the boat in-port; I averaged 70-90, depending on where my duty days fell that week. But he volunteered for overtime at every opportunity. If he never volunteered for overtime, he would've rarely worked over 50. He also collected time and a half for 20 of those hours and night differential for overnights. So yea, not the same as being at sea and not being home anywhere close to the holiday and collecting a measly $100 career sea pay and like $260 FSA for it, and I really don't buy the sob-story of people who say their law enforcement spouses work a lot. They don't work significantly more or less hours than most people do with many civilian companies doing 9 hour work days to make up for your unpaid lunch hour unless they ask for the OT. Also, law enforcement is not considered a civilian career. But you know what I did as a civilian? Worked on holidays, because people still buy stuff on Christmas, Thanksgiving, and even Arbor Day, too, and companies don't make money by closing up shop.

My brother is a police officer and he is not authorized to work more than 12 hours a day unless some huge catastrophe happens, ie hurricane Sandy; if he wants overtime, it usually has to be on his day off and he has no obligation to say yes. Oh, and he makes more money than me with only 2 years on the job.

I wonder how this compares to vehicle related deaths?

Approximately 430,000 vehicle deaths in the same time period. The current rate is 1/10k people. Last year it was 32,000 people. US population is 313 million people.

Sources: http://icasualties.org/oef/Fatalities.aspx
http://icasualties.org/iraq/fatalities.aspx
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_motor_vehicle_deaths_in_U.S._by_year

 

[Calculon]

Had to dig way in the archives for this one

That of course was for just one year (2004)