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Active shooter at NAS Pensacola

UInavy

Registered User
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
So is this back the the cultural thing or are you drunker than me? A watch stander at home with a phone isn’t a watch stander any more than the CO/XO/Senior enlisted
Ha, maybe back to the cultural thing. I took your first question at face value. Your issue is with Navy duty Officers being off-post after the working day and the Enlisted watch stander remaining on-post? Is there (without me being a 'risk averse pussy' in your words) a value in the Officer remaining on post other than stretching the duty day of a JO in an already undermanned squadron?
 

Treetop Flyer

Well-Known Member
pilot
Ha, maybe back to the cultural thing. I took your first question at face value. Your issue is with watch Navy duty Officers being off-post after the working day and the Enlisted watch stander remaining on-post? Is there (without me being a 'risk averse pussy' in your words) a value in the Officer remaining on post other than stretching the duty day of a JO in an already undermanned squadron?
Yes, I suppose it’s back to the cultural thing. There weren’t enough officers to have one on duty every day in my fleet squadron, so the watch bill was shared between company grade officers and SNCO’s.

The risk adverse pussy comment was aimed at people more worried about getting fired than running an armed service. Kind of like how (I hear) Naval Aviators (in the Navy) aren’t trusted to carry a loaded pistol into combat.
 

UInavy

Registered User
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
The risk adverse pussy comment was aimed at people more worried about getting fired than running an armed service. Kind of like how (I hear) Naval Aviators (in the Navy) aren’t trusted to carry a loaded pistol into combat.
Got it. I know of exactly zero folks that have exhausted several thousand pounds of bombs, several hundred rounds of 20mm and subsequently been defeated by a lack of pistol ammo. If there was a serious risk of shoot down or capture, I also know of zero COs that would prohibit personnel loading their weapons appropriately.
 

Treetop Flyer

Well-Known Member
pilot
Got it. I know of exactly zero folks that have exhausted several thousand pounds of bombs, several hundred rounds of 20mm and subsequently been defeated by a lack of pistol ammo. If there was a serious risk of shoot down or capture, I also know of zero COs that would prohibit personnel loading their weapons appropriately.
So you’re defending the decision to not trust officers entrusted with bombs and 20mm with a fucking 9mm? It’s absurd. It’s indefensible. It’s pathetic.
 

UInavy

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You started here:
Do Navy units even have officer watch standers?
Answered your own question:
I’m pretty sure I covered that in the original post. Hornet people said they were at home with a phone “on duty”
You went here:
Kind of like how (I hear) Naval Aviators (in the Navy) aren’t trusted to carry a loaded pistol into combat.
And here:
So you’re defending the decision to not trust officers entrusted with bombs and 20mm with a fucking 9mm? It’s absurd. It’s indefensible. It’s pathetic.
And, no. No one is saying that an Officer that take weapons into combat isn't trusted with a 9mm. If they are, that's on them. Creating your own absurdity doesn't grant the ability to create your own reality.
 

Treetop Flyer

Well-Known Member
pilot
You started here:

Answered your own question:

You went here:

And here:

And, no. No one is saying that an Officer that take weapons into combat isn't trusted with a 9mm. If they are, that's on them. Creating your own absurdity doesn't grant the ability to create your own reality.
It would be cool if you put as much effort into making a point as you do in quoting me.

What is the standard watch for your squadron? Are they armed? Did you fly in combat with a loaded weapon? You seem defensive.
 

xmid

Registered User
pilot
Contributor
Did you fly in combat with a loaded weapon?

All my green time was with a loaded M-11 holstered in my vest and a loaded M-4 behind me. The 2515th NAAD stood ODO with loaded M-11's. My green time was pretty uneventful, but as far as I know there was never any question we would be armed (and loaded) whenever we crossed in to Indian country. The entire navy didn't buy in to this craziness, after someone shot a chair on a carrier somewhere.
 
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IKE

Nerd Whirler
pilot
Having deployed to 5th Fleet in 17/18, I got the distinct impression that the unloaded, duct-taped MAF bag BS with the M-11 ammo was a direct result of some AO administrivia... similar to having to go cold-steel to swap expendables when there are no fewer than 4 mechanical safeties on the H-60 for CMDS (or cold steel for CATMs)
 

BigRed389

Registered User
None
Do Navy units even have officer watch standers? I seem to remember laughing at Navy dudes and dudettes bitching about being “on duty” for their squadron, which apparently consisted of taking a cell phone home. Every Marine unit I’ve been in has a 24 hour duty that is an officer and/or SNCO that’s armed.

Leaving it up to local commanders will have the obvious outcome of risk averse pussies doing the math on what is more likely to get them fired.

It's more that I lack confidence that OPNAV won't fuck it up if they try to make a broad sweeping change in policy because the requirements between commands are so varied.

A shipboard duty section is required to have ability to stand up a full ATFP response team, including crew served weapons, and maintain armed watchstanders 24/7. Reality vs paper capability varies from ship to ship, but the actual requirement is there and it generally sort of works as another layer supplementing installation ATFP measures (https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2015/04/07/navy-issues-punishments-for-mahan-shooting/ ).
The reason the requirement exists while in CONUS is to supplement a greater operational requirement to surge sortie a ship if needed.
If you're going to have enough people onboard to be able to light everything off while the rest of the crew comes onboard to get the ship underway in a hurry, adding extra bodies to be able to mount up machine guns to protect that $1B+ of military hardware isn't an unreasonable ask on personnel.
Likewise, ships are responsible for unit and pier FP. The base CO only owns the security cordon outside those lifelines.

Does a squadron in CONUS really need to field the same level of security?
What is the actual security value of one or more guys doing rounds after hours with a sidearm?
Or rather, what is the desired level of security and deconfliction between what the base CO is responsible for vs what the squadron/wing owns?
What level of threat are they supposed to stop?

And then there's the remote sites like NRD Chattanooga where there is no installation support. ATFP measure are basically just call local PD...for that kind of site CCW at CO's discretion is a much easier sell (particularly as you're not getting a unit armory and duty weapons issued for a site like that).
 
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wiseguy04

The Dude abides....
pilot
The entire navy didn't buy in to this craziness, after someone shot a chair on a carrier somewhere.

Ah, yes. The reason the Navy can’t have nice things...

That was good old CAG Bishop, on the IKE.

I think he eventually made Admiral... ?
 

UInavy

Registered User
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
It's more that I lack confidence that OPNAV won't fuck it up if they try to make a broad sweeping change in policy because the requirements between commands are so varied.........
This whole post is better thought out than how I was trying to put it.
 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
So is this back the the cultural thing or are you drunker than me? A watch stander at home with a phone isn’t a watch stander any more than the CO/XO/Senior enlisted
I don't know why everyone is being a dick to you about your question, but here's the answer:

For at-sea commands, ship's company will stand 24 hour duty days, this includes at least 1 CPO and 1 Officer. When in a foreign port, the force protection guidance will typically require at least the CPO or Officer to carry a 9mm. This becomes more of a burden than anything else as now you essentially get 2-3 hours of sleep (as opposed to the 5 or so that you normally would have gotten) as you go on gun watch rotations because you can't sleep while armed. In CONUS, it's not required for supervisors to carry a 9mm.

As BigRed alluded to, you also have to have sufficient qualified personnel to man ATFP response teams. I wouldn't trust those ATFP response teams to be effective at stopping anyone who knows what they are doing; armed watchstanders are more of a deterrent than anything else. We simply don't have the bandwidth to focus a lot of time and attention on training for FP incidents, and meeting the bare minimum doesn't build a level of proficiency that should give anyone a warm fuzzy that we're well prepared to handle these sort of things. Maybe it's a different story with larger ships that have MAs attached, but we don't have those.

Shore based commands typically do NOT have armed watchstanders on duty and leave the Force Protection responsibility to the base, which usually involves a combination of civilian and military armed watchstanders.

However, as I mentioned previously the amount of armed watchstanders who decided to go the way Private Pyle in the past decade, some who decide to take others with him, has completely eclipsed the amount of times an armed watchstander has stopped an outside aggressor. Instead of arming everyone, we really need to take a look at who we arm and whether the juice is worth the squeeze. An armed civilian security watchstander scanning all personnel/searching all vehicles and bags prior to entering the portions of the base where you can access the piers would go a lot further than sticking another ETSN (E-3) who does a semi-annual gun shoot on the brow with a shotgun or M16.
 
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