ACLU vs. USNA

[OUSOONER]

Having a king, doesn't necessarily restrict individual rights. I mean back in the 13th century when England was an actual kingdom, Magna Carta limited the kings rights. Granted the right granted in Magna Carta were really only for the upper class, but it set precedent for the limiting of the rights of the monarch that likey would have been included in any US monarchy.

So in 13th century England you had freedom of religion then? When the King's rights were limited in the 13th century, what happened? The Catholic Church pretty much took over, imposing their will.

I'm talking about the "individual rights" that were supposed to be what set our country apart from any other. For many that came here,"Freedom of Religion" was the primary motive to brave the Atlantic and head to these shores. We already got one of our basic "rights" called into question yesterday. The Bill of Rights was an after thought..."wait a minute..forgot the whole reason that makes our Constitution different than any other...oops lets put in the Bill of Rights". Freedom of religion should include freedom FROM religion. I'm not saying that's where my beliefs rest, but hey, it's why we are America and everyone else isn't.

That being said, where are you going to draw the line here? It will be hard to break down social norms to make it vanilla and "all encompassing". /Flag waving rant.

 

[SemperGumbi]

It kills me how people cry shenanigans because they feel something is being forced upon them, then decide to fix it by forcing their own will upon everyone else. If you don't like it, fuckin live with it.

The thing is, people on the other side of the coin are thinking the same way: "You don't like that I don't want to hear your prayer and want to keep it because it is tradition? Just deal with it..."

I don't think that is a good argument (or maybe just not a good way of wording it?).

 

[OUSOONER]

Is that "Big Brown's" trainer on the left?

 

[mtsupilot09]

If you don't like it, fuckin live with it.

Scoob hit the nail on the head. I'm not in the military, but I have family who are and were. Business is business, and sorry if a few people out of thousands are offended. Honestly, I am offended when people degrade my beliefs (ghosts and goblins and fairies, etc.) But I have learned to turn the other cheek. You don't see anyone on here going to the mods about our discussion. It's been civil and adult and no one's feelings have been hurt. You don't like something? Deal with it. The sense of entitlement in this country is astounding. "I deserve! Where's mine?!" Ridiculous. As far as this country being "Christian", to an extent it is. However, the Church of this country is not being the hands and feet of God, and the American Church has flatlined. Just my 2 cents.

 

[OUSOONER]

Scoob hit the nail on the head. I'm not in the military, but I have family who are and were. Business is business, and sorry if a few people out of thousands are offended. Honestly, I am offended when people degrade my beliefs (ghosts and goblins and fairies, etc.) But I have learned to turn the other cheek. You don't see anyone on here going to the mods about our discussion. It's been civil and adult and no one's feelings have been hurt. You don't like something? Deal with it. The sense of entitlement in this country is astounding. "I deserve! Where's mine?!" Ridiculous. As far as this country being "Christian", to an extent it is. However, the Church of this country is not being the hands and feet of God, and the American Church has flatlined. Just my 2 cents.

Yes but the first people who wanted freedom of/from whatever religion..DID fight for it. It goes beyond ACLU vs USNA. The United States is unique in that we are a melting pot of diversity..(love the buzzwords) and these "few of thousands" grows larger every day. believe that.

 

[mtsupilot09]

I agree with you, the "melting pot" of diversity is growing every day. For the time being, though, majority rules and as long as there are as many Christians as there are in this country, public prayers will continue to part of our lives. To give my opponents credit, if there were a Muslim prayer every morning, people would absolutely flip. FWIW, when Jonathan Edwards (not the politician) and the like came to this land, it was not for religious independence. If you weren't Christian, you were SOL. Remember a book called the Scarlett Letter? We've come a long way from witch hunts, but this nonsense of our contry being founded on religious diversity is false. A basic college history class will teach that. Nice buzz words though

 

[OUSOONER]

this is true. but i think i'm also influenced since i live in the BUCKLE of the bible belt. where billy cant go outside and play with jonny because jonny's mom and dad dont go to the southern baptist church and participate in the pot luck dinners.

 

[Afterburner76]

And for those who are not of the religious type, just wait until 3/4 of a mile, blue water, tank on the ball, no moon, no horizon, pitching deck, rain, clara ship. Only God and the LSO can help you now!!!
.

Ummm...really? Gee, I just though it might have been the 100's or 1000's of FCLPs, day, and night traps you've been relentlessly practicing to get just that much closer to perfect combined with the LSO's professional expertise in "talking you down" in the worst of conditions that did it.

 

[Afterburner76]

Scoob hit the nail on the head. I'm not in the military, but I have family who are and were. Business is business, and sorry if a few people out of thousands are offended. .

It's this kind of belief that would have kept Black sailors as stewards and cooks, and kept hazing a part of our military culture.

The idea of tradition is tradition, business is business, and the "deal with it" attitude is what holds back progress. Never accept the status quo...there's ALWAYS a better way to do something.

True, there will never be a time when EVERYONE is happy... but this is just ludicrous.

 

[OUSOONER]

It's this kind of belief that would have kept Black sailors as stewards and cooks, and kept hazing a part of our military culture.

The idea of tradition is tradition, business is business, and the "deal with it" attitude is what holds back progress. Never accept the status quo...there's ALWAYS a better way to do something.

True, there will never be a time when EVERYONE is happy... but this is just ludicrous.

and to expand on WannaGoFast...as an officer (like you and i want to be one day mtsupilot), dont you think they come across decisions that the "right" decision/answer isnt necessarily the popular one? I know, I know, apples and oranges, but when you think about it closely..not really. Sometimes you have to challenge the status quo. Or like WGF said..progress is never made.

 

[phrogpilot73]

I could give a shit if the prayer goes away or not. It's not going to change the military all that much.

What does piss me off to no end is this "commissioned officer" (using the term very loosely), doesn't have the fucking nuts to use her chain of command - she goes straight to the ACLU. I hope she doesn't last long in the fleet (and I don't think she will).

 

[Scoob]

It's this kind of belief that would have kept Black sailors as stewards and cooks, and kept hazing a part of our military culture.

The idea of tradition is tradition, business is business, and the "deal with it" attitude is what holds back progress. Never accept the status quo...there's ALWAYS a better way to do something.

True, there will never be a time when EVERYONE is happy... but this is just ludicrous.

This is not about challenging the status quo, or championing the oppressed.

This is not a fight for freedom of oppression, or freedom to practice religion however you choose, or freedom to not practice religion. This is a fight for "I can't have my way, so nobody gets theirs".

Don't delude yourselves into thinking there's something noble about this, and that "dealing with it" is somehow equivalent to "good men failing to act".

 

[LazersGoPEWPEW]

USNA is not Burger King. You can't have it your way.

 

[RockySLP]

And they were going to crown George Washington king as well (which he refused)..to say it was "founded" on individual rights isn't accurate.

Is that the same "they" that saw him chop down a cherry tree?

 

[OUSOONER]

Is that the same "they" that saw him chop down a cherry tree?

"Less publicly avowed was the purpose to make their commander-in-chief king, if he could be persuaded to aid in establishing a monarchy. Washington put a summary stop to the whole proceeding. A letter written to him by Colonel Lewis Nicola, on behalf of this coterie, detailed the weakness of a republican form of government as they had experienced it, their desire for "mixed government", with him at its head, and their belief that "the title of king" would be objectionable to but few and of material advantage to the country. His reply was peremptory and indignant. In plain terms he stated his abhorrence of the proposal; he was at a loss to conceive what part of his conduct could have encouraged their address; they could not have found "a person to whom their schemes were more disagreeable"; and he charged them, "if you have any regard for yourself or posterity, or respect for me, to banish these thoughts from your mind, and never communicate, as from yourself or any one else, a sentiment of the like nature.""

from http://www.nndb.com/people/107/000024035/ ...and from a few of the history books I have left over from various courses in college (electives mind you).