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OCS 02Nov20 SNA/SNFO (Pilot/NFO) Board

Ghost SWO

Well-Known Member
Contributor
And this is why I have a theory at all.

as exOfficerRec has said numerous times, it’s most qualified.
Define and quantify most qualified.
It’s not specific, some are all about numbers, but others are more impacted by the personal/motivational statements.
Source: current and prior CO both sat selection boards while at PERS.
If there were no specifics to selection, on what criteria were we selected?

You say it is not specific but you give two examples of board members selecting on different and specific criteria or did I read that wrong?

Each member of the board looks at packages differently
And herein lies the problem. If it's not consistent between panel members, what is consistent? Hence my own theory.

Also, Where are your stats on the Excel? Disappointed.
 

Tgonzo29

Member
Best thing you can do to get selected is to not leave a single stone unturned when it comes to your package. Push every button, pull every lever. If your scores and GPA are low (if even if your scores are stellar), find other ways to make it better. Go out and get some flight hours/pilot license.... and even your boating license. Submit any documents that you can to advocate for yourself. I included my hockey coaching certificates, FAA pilot certificate, my formation flying wing card, proof of volunteer involvement, commemorative air force pilot documents, boating license, anything I could. Surround yourself with active/retired pilots/NFOs who have been there and done that. I'm sure they would be happy to help you with a rec letter. The pilot community is known for paying it forward. Be sincere with your motivational statement. Have multiple people review it. We have close to a year in many cases to put these packages together. There is no excuse to not make it as good as possible, especially when we are able to include any documents we would like in our package.

Put yourself in their shoes. If they see that you are doing everything you can to make yourself stand out.... it will show how much you want this opportunity, even if your scores aren't as good as others. Your enthusiasm can carry you
 
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Forgedinwater

Active Member
Best thing you can do to get selected is to not leave a single stone unturned when it comes to your package. Push every button, pull every lever. If your scores and GPA are low (if even if your scores are stellar), find other ways to make it better. Go out and get some flight hours/pilot license.... and even your boating license. Submit any documents that you can to advocate for yourself. I included my hockey coaching certificates, FAA pilot certificate, my formation flying wing card, proof of volunteer involvement, commemorative air force pilot documents, boating license, anything I could. Surround yourself with active/former people who have been there and done that. I'm sure they would be happy to help you with a rec letter. The pilot community is known for paying it forward. Be sincere with your motivational statement. Have multiple people review it. We have close to a year in many cases to put these packages together. There is no excuse to not make it as good as possible, especially when we are able to include any documents we would like in our package.

Put yourself in their shoes. If they see that you are doing everything you can to make yourself stand out.... it will show how much you want this opportunity, even if your scores aren't as good as others. Your enthusiasm can carry you
I'll be honest, I wasn't even away you could submit things like that. I have several vocational certificates that I otherwise would have included. My recruiter literally just told me 2 LORs (I did submit 3), trsnscripts; and a motivational statement; he did write down some other involvements on my application, but he made it seem like it was pretty strict about what could even be included.
 

Tgonzo29

Member
I'll be honest, I wasn't even away you could submit things like that. I have several vocational certificates that I otherwise would have included. My recruiter literally just told me 2 LORs (I did submit 3), trsnscripts; and a motivational statement; he did write down some other involvements on my application, but he made it seem like it was pretty strict about what could even be included.
I just asked my recruiter if I could include them and she gave me the green light.
 

Ghost SWO

Well-Known Member
Contributor
Can you share what you think that specific criteria is here?
Absolutely,

We know people get selected with ASTB minimums (5/6/6), but some don't get selected with high ASTB scores so is it all about the ASTB?

No.

We know people get selected with low GPA's and some don't get selected with a very good GPA, so is it all about GPA?

No.

We can say the same for any objective criteria under the sun so why are some selected and others are not when objectively one candidate is "most qualified", when another is objectively less qualified but is selected?

My theory is that there are criteria (or what I call specifics) for each board member that if they are going to select a candidate they need to check off these specific criteria or they're not going to select the candidate, regardless of ASTB, GPA, etc. I think the way this is done mentally is similar to a flow chart, if you get a yes, continue on to the next criteria. If the answer leans toward a no, we start to consider other factors or criteria like objective numbers much sooner in the process.

Criteria #1: Administrative, and Easy No's
Is the applicant worth my time to evaluate from a high altitude perspective, properly filled out application, waivers (to include morality, felonies etc), clerical or administrative errors. This can often form an immediate "no" pile for any criteria the board wishes to make a hard cut-off for, moral waivers, hard cut-offs like low GPA or ASTB scores (hasn't been done in a while according to OffRec) etc. Maybe there is something that is a glaring no to the board member.

Criteria #2: Desire To Join The Navy
Is the applicant clearly interested in joining the Navy. Is this clearly stated and quantified in their application? First and foremost we're joining the Navy, not the aviation community. The applicant needs to show interest in the military branch because if you fail flight school or get hit with NAMI and fail a flight physical you're selecting a different career in the Navy, or getting out completely.

Criteria #3: Officer Aptitude
Is the applicant clearly interested, capable, and competent to serve in an officer capacity and be a leader? Has the applicant demonstrated leadership in their application, offices held in extra curricular activities, captain of sports teams, management/leadership in jobs, program leads, etc.

Criteria #4: Desire To Be In The Aviation Career
Does the applicant express a desire to be a Navy pilot/NFO, and why? Does the applicant have the right attitude that would fit in with being a part of the Navy aviator community? What is the applicants disposition to failure or being a part of a community that is constantly being evaluated? Is this person a good fit, or not? Would I want this person as my own wingman?

Criteria #5: Objective Scores That Quantify Aptitudes
Does the applicant have scores that match the previous criteria, detract from the application, or add to the candidates overall position in the board. Pretty self explanatory. This helps the board member quantify whether a selected applicant will make it through flight school.

Criteria #6: How Does This Candidate Stack Against Others?
Based on the previously mentioned criteria, does the candidate rate higher or lower from criteria 2-5. Candidates rating higher in Criteria 2 may be placed above candidates rated higher in Criteria 5. Likewise, candidates with a low Criteria 3 or 4 but very high Criteria 5 may be placed lower and receive a non-selection because they show no desire, or aptitude. Their ASTB cannot carry them through with such large deficiencies in more important criteria's. If someone with all 9's doesn't show leadership, aptitude, or strong desire to be in the Navy, or doesn't appear to be a good fit for the community, why choose them?

That's my theory on selection. There's probably things I forgot or important aspects I may have missed but that's the gist of it.

The specifics I was referring to was more to a specific category like a check in a box before moving on to the next important category, not necessarily certain objective cut-offs or minimums. I think it's a process that each board members goes through on their own. I think the ASTB and other objective scores help validate the other criteria for selection. This is a mental process that is done rapidly for each candidate. But if you hit a snag higher up on the criteria list, that's not a good sign. I think we look at ASTB and other objective numbers as being the first criteria and I think that's completely upside-down from reality during the selection process.

If you think about the criteria I've listed, you've also written a pretty good motivational statement IMHO...
 
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Closet_plane

Well-Known Member
There’s also just the reason the military makes wowed decisions that only make sense to a few. Any prior service or currently enlisted person will know this.

side note, anyone see a movie called “Bridges at Toko-ri”? Pretty good naval aviation movie imo, they footage they used is pretty good.
 

Tgonzo29

Member
There’s also just the reason the military makes wowed decisions that only make sense to a few. Any prior service or currently enlisted person will know this.

side note, anyone see a movie called “Bridges at Toko-ri”? Pretty good naval aviation movie imo, they footage they used is pretty good.
My grandpa was a former F9F Cougar driver. Showed me that movie when i was little! You should read the book if you haven't already. Its great
 

amclouth

Member
Ghost SWO, after reading your theory, we are basically on the same page. By saying there’s nothing specific, I mean there is no baseline of “if you meet all of these criteria you are guaranteed to be selected”. Each board member has their own subjective criteria of what weighs more heavily to them than it might for others. So, yes, there are specifics, but not a standard for every board, other than meeting the requirements of the program authorizations.
As far as my scores, they’ll be uploaded eventually.
 

nyynyg

Member
Absolutely,

We know people get selected with ASTB minimums (5/6/6), but some don't get selected with high ASTB scores so is it all about the ASTB?

No.

We know people get selected with low GPA's and some don't get selected with a very good GPA, so is it all about GPA?

No.

We can say the same for any objective criteria under the sun so why are some selected and others are not when objectively one candidate is "most qualified", when another is objectively less qualified but is selected?

My theory is that there are criteria (or what I call specifics) for each board member that if they are going to select a candidate they need to check off these specific criteria or they're not going to select the candidate, regardless of ASTB, GPA, etc. I think the way this is done mentally is similar to a flow chart, if you get a yes, continue on to the next criteria. If the answer leans toward a no, we start to consider other factors or criteria like objective numbers much sooner in the process.

Criteria #1: Administrative, and Easy No's
Is the applicant worth my time to evaluate from a high altitude perspective, properly filled out application, waivers (to include morality, felonies etc), clerical or administrative errors. This can often form an immediate "no" pile for any criteria the board wishes to make a hard cut-off for, moral waivers, hard cut-offs like low GPA or ASTB scores (hasn't been done in a while according to OffRec) etc. Maybe there is something that is a glaring no to the board member.

Criteria #2: Desire To Join The Navy
Is the applicant clearly interested in joining the Navy. Is this clearly stated and quantified in their application? First and foremost we're joining the Navy, not the aviation community. The applicant needs to show interest in the military branch because if you fail flight school or get hit with NAMI and fail a flight physical you're selecting a different career in the Navy, or getting out completely.

Criteria #3: Officer Aptitude
Is the applicant clearly interested, capable, and competent to serve in an officer capacity and be a leader? Has the applicant demonstrated leadership in their application, offices held in extra curricular activities, captain of sports teams, management/leadership in jobs, program leads, etc.

Criteria #4: Desire To Be In The Aviation Career
Does the applicant express a desire to be a Navy pilot/NFO, and why? Does the applicant have the right attitude that would fit in with being a part of the Navy aviator community? What is the applicants disposition to failure or being a part of a community that is constantly being evaluated? Is this person a good fit, or not? Would I want this person as my own wingman?

Criteria #5: Objective Scores That Quantify Aptitudes
Does the applicant have scores that match the previous criteria, detract from the application, or add to the candidates overall position in the board. Pretty self explanatory. This helps the board member quantify whether a selected applicant will make it through flight school.

Criteria #6: How Does This Candidate Stack Against Others?
Based on the previously mentioned criteria, does the candidate rate higher or lower from criteria 2-5. Candidates rating higher in Criteria 2 may be placed above candidates rated higher in Criteria 5. Likewise, candidates with a low Criteria 3 or 4 but very high Criteria 5 may be placed lower and receive a non-selection because they show no desire, or aptitude. Their ASTB cannot carry them through with such large deficiencies in more important criteria's. If someone with all 9's doesn't show leadership, aptitude, or strong desire to be in the Navy, or doesn't appear to be a good fit for the community, why choose them?

That's my theory on selection. There's probably things I forgot or important aspects I may have missed but that's the gist of it.

The specifics I was referring to was more to a specific category like a check in a box before moving on to the next important category, not necessarily certain objective cut-offs or minimums. I think it's a process that each board members goes through on their own. I think the ASTB and other objective scores help validate the other criteria for selection. This is a mental process that is done rapidly for each candidate. But if you hit a snag higher up on the criteria list, that's not a good sign. I think we look at ASTB and other objective numbers as being the first criteria and I think that's completely upside-down from reality during the selection process.

If you think about the criteria I've listed, you've also written a pretty good motivational statement IMHO...
Thanks, here's to hoping for only having to worry about this for a few more days lol
 

exNavyOffRec

Well-Known Member
Absolutely,

We know people get selected with ASTB minimums (5/6/6), but some don't get selected with high ASTB scores so is it all about the ASTB?

No.

We know people get selected with low GPA's and some don't get selected with a very good GPA, so is it all about GPA?

No.

We can say the same for any objective criteria under the sun so why are some selected and others are not when objectively one candidate is "most qualified", when another is objectively less qualified but is selected?

My theory is that there are criteria (or what I call specifics) for each board member that if they are going to select a candidate they need to check off these specific criteria or they're not going to select the candidate, regardless of ASTB, GPA, etc. I think the way this is done mentally is similar to a flow chart, if you get a yes, continue on to the next criteria. If the answer leans toward a no, we start to consider other factors or criteria like objective numbers much sooner in the process.

Criteria #1: Administrative, and Easy No's
Is the applicant worth my time to evaluate from a high altitude perspective, properly filled out application, waivers (to include morality, felonies etc), clerical or administrative errors. This can often form an immediate "no" pile for any criteria the board wishes to make a hard cut-off for, moral waivers, hard cut-offs like low GPA or ASTB scores (hasn't been done in a while according to OffRec) etc. Maybe there is something that is a glaring no to the board member.

Criteria #2: Desire To Join The Navy
Is the applicant clearly interested in joining the Navy. Is this clearly stated and quantified in their application? First and foremost we're joining the Navy, not the aviation community. The applicant needs to show interest in the military branch because if you fail flight school or get hit with NAMI and fail a flight physical you're selecting a different career in the Navy, or getting out completely.

Criteria #3: Officer Aptitude
Is the applicant clearly interested, capable, and competent to serve in an officer capacity and be a leader? Has the applicant demonstrated leadership in their application, offices held in extra curricular activities, captain of sports teams, management/leadership in jobs, program leads, etc.

Criteria #4: Desire To Be In The Aviation Career
Does the applicant express a desire to be a Navy pilot/NFO, and why? Does the applicant have the right attitude that would fit in with being a part of the Navy aviator community? What is the applicants disposition to failure or being a part of a community that is constantly being evaluated? Is this person a good fit, or not? Would I want this person as my own wingman?

Criteria #5: Objective Scores That Quantify Aptitudes
Does the applicant have scores that match the previous criteria, detract from the application, or add to the candidates overall position in the board. Pretty self explanatory. This helps the board member quantify whether a selected applicant will make it through flight school.

Criteria #6: How Does This Candidate Stack Against Others?
Based on the previously mentioned criteria, does the candidate rate higher or lower from criteria 2-5. Candidates rating higher in Criteria 2 may be placed above candidates rated higher in Criteria 5. Likewise, candidates with a low Criteria 3 or 4 but very high Criteria 5 may be placed lower and receive a non-selection because they show no desire, or aptitude. Their ASTB cannot carry them through with such large deficiencies in more important criteria's. If someone with all 9's doesn't show leadership, aptitude, or strong desire to be in the Navy, or doesn't appear to be a good fit for the community, why choose them?

That's my theory on selection. There's probably things I forgot or important aspects I may have missed but that's the gist of it.

The specifics I was referring to was more to a specific category like a check in a box before moving on to the next important category, not necessarily certain objective cut-offs or minimums. I think it's a process that each board members goes through on their own. I think the ASTB and other objective scores help validate the other criteria for selection. This is a mental process that is done rapidly for each candidate. But if you hit a snag higher up on the criteria list, that's not a good sign. I think we look at ASTB and other objective numbers as being the first criteria and I think that's completely upside-down from reality during the selection process.

If you think about the criteria I've listed, you've also written a pretty good motivational statement IMHO...
You must remember they take just a quick look at the applications, the only real predictor as to the chances of a person getting through the pipeline is the ASTB that is why it is king, GPA when it comes to aviation has not been a big factor at all (unless it really sucks then it can be an issue)

Yes there are people with high GPA's that are not selected, sometimes there are factors that people don't disclose such as waivers for non-medical issues. I know there were people on this site from my NRD who that were not selected that had decent scores, some disclosed in the threads they had a legal/moral waiver, others did not disclose it. Then there are those with lower ASTB scores that are picked up, often it is just a numbers game, and some get lucky.

The number of applicants selected for aviation that have done really nothing outside of school far exceeds those selected from other designators as the most important thing is the ability to get through flight school. The best example I have is I had a guy who was a D1 athlete, 3.5 ish GPA, and good degree, however his PFAR was a 5 on his 1st board and he was a N, he second board his PFAR was a 7 and he was a N, he again took the ASTB for his 3rd and last time and ended up with a PFAR of 8 and then he was picked up. We had a few other examples but his was the best as the only, and I mean only thing that changed was he studied and retook the ASTB.

Important thing to remember are: minimal time to review applications, they need to pick people who have the best chance of making it through flight school (saves the USN money), and if you have a legal/moral waiver your application will get a harder look than anyone else so that person needs to address it and address it well.
 
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