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USMC VMFAT-101 Syllabus

wlawr005

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pilot
Contributor
I apologize. There is a way...but no one is ever going to do it, train to it, etc. The F18 is moving in a similar direction. The capability to turn the system off will exist, but we aren't going to the ship that way. That being said, the point still stands that the first option would be to divert. The second option would be to try something that isn't trained to (landing manually) versus ejecting alongside. Assuming your plane is so broken it can't land, trying to land it manually sounds like the worst of the options.

There was a failure mode in the F-18C where you could manually control the stabs in case of a total electrical failure (mech reversion). Landing on the boat like that would have been less desirable than ejecting alongside.

To be clear, no one is advocating that the computer should do all the work. What is being said is that almost always the flight control system is only stable with the computers running it. Remove the flight control computers and the ability to control a severely degraded fly by wire system enough to land on the ship becomes a coin flip at best and that's being optimistic. So far the system has proven capable through every feasible combination of failed control surfaces, hydraulic systems, and (in the F18) single engine scenarios.

To be more to the point, the chances of such a scenario occurring are so infinitely small it has been determined that the risk and cost of training to manual landings may be greater than the risk of not doing so.

In any case, thanks for clearing that up.
 
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Python

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pilot
Contributor
Yup. And for the others that may have a misconception: just like the F18, the F35 doesn’t automatically engage PLM when you dirty up. You have to select it. For field landings (not FCLP), there are plenty done manually. So at the ship, all you’d have to do is not engage PLM and you could meatball, lineup, AOA the old school way. Assuming you were proficient, there’d be no harm to anything doing that; it would work and nothing would break.

......BUT, you will not be proficient, because nobody trains to that, and frankly, nobody should. Thus, PLM is the only technique used. The plane was designed for it to be that way.
 

taxi1

Well-Known Member
pilot
To be clear, no one is advocating that the computer should do all the work.
Thread drift...

I think it is on the horizon. A decade? I don’t know. But I work with guys developing vision systems for autonomous landings where it sees and lands, but in visual, IR, and radar simultaneously. There’s been work done on modeling the ship dynamics and the actual seas in front of the ship, to land the plane at where the ship is going to be in 15 seconds. Crazy stuff.

Every time I see SpaceX recover a booster, basically landing a stick upright within inches of the target, my mind is blown.
 

Brett327

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Super Moderator
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think it is on the horizon. A decade?
X-47B has already demonstrated that capability (though it relies on JPALS to land) and will probably be operating/integrated into the CVW within a few years. That said, requirements are already being fleshed out for the follow-on manned platform that will eventually replace E/F/G, so we've got at least another 40 years before the robots take over completely.
 

HuggyU2

Well-Known Member
None
Right now the plan (allegedly) is for marine studs that select charlie hornets to do a T-45 CQ post wings.
If they are remaining at NMM or NQI until they complete the CQ, what is the advantage to doing it after the winging? A smoother syllabus flow to graduation?
 

Brett327

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If they are remaining at NMM or NQI until they complete the CQ, what is the advantage to doing it after the winging? A smoother syllabus flow to graduation?
Because only a small percentage of Marine Hornet squadrons are attached to CVWs. Sounds like they're targeting those folks once they know they're going to those squadrons, which happens later in the pipeline.
 

nittany03

Recovering NFO. Herder of Programmers.
pilot
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Right now the plan (allegedly) is for marine studs that select charlie hornets to do a T-45 CQ post wings. Rumor is that there is only one slot coming up for the rest of the fiscal year but I wouldn't put a ton of stock in that being true.
My first thought is it seems to be odd to wing and then do CQ, for no other reason than it's "hey, nice new wings, but if you DQ at the boat, you get FNAEBed." Seems it would be less painful for all involved to ID your CVW players, require CQ after selection, then wing.
 

wlawr005

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pilot
Contributor
If they are remaining at NMM or NQI until they complete the CQ, what is the advantage to doing it after the winging? A smoother syllabus flow to graduation?
Right now, that's only a rumor. The last four Marines at my squadron all selected F35B. None of them went to the boat. The projected numbers for USMC F18 are so low that even picking one is an outlier. What they would do regarding CQ has been yet to be determined. See the above comments regarding F35C selectees needing a T45 CQ syllabus. Still yet to be determined exactly what they're going to do either. Realistically, they'll all probably go to the boat for the first time at the FRS.
 

STOVLer

Well-Known Member
pilot
Right now, that's only a rumor. The last four Marines at my squadron all selected F35B. None of them went to the boat. The projected numbers for USMC F18 are so low that even picking one is an outlier. What they would do regarding CQ has been yet to be determined. See the above comments regarding F35C selectees needing a T45 CQ syllabus. Still yet to be determined exactly what they're going to do either. Realistically, they'll all probably go to the boat for the first time at the FRS.

F35B FRS does not go to the boat. They don’t even FCLP. It’s a shortfall because the burden on the fleet is that much higher.
 

wlawr005

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pilot
Contributor
F35B FRS does not go to the boat. They don’t even FCLP. It’s a shortfall because the burden on the fleet is that much higher.
Yes, I understand that. But it the past we still made Harrier guys CQ even though it was dumb. This is a move in the right direction.

The point is that selection rates for F18 and F35C are not the long pole in the tent for USMC right now.

I honestly think everyone is standing around with bated breath until big Navy officially shit cans CQ at the TRACOM level, hopefully sometime towards the end of this calendar year.
 

Brett327

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I honestly think everyone is standing around with bated breath until big Navy officially shit cans CQ at the TRACOM level, hopefully sometime towards the end of this calendar year.
Do you think that will happen? Would you consider that to be a good decision if it does? Just curious what the IP perspective is on that topic.
 

wlawr005

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
Oh, it's happening...and has a pretty realistic timeline too. As soon as the fully redudndant version of PLM hits the fleet for the F18 and the first class of FRS students successfully CQs, the Navy will initially experiment with no TRACOM CQ and then go all in soon after.

I think boats are expensive and time consuming. I think the advanced landing modes of the current generation of fighters is incredibly reliable. Game changing even. I think we need a new trainer...and there's a perfectly good one already built that cannot land on a ship.

This is all personal opinion. As an LSO, I feel like I could prepare a Cat I FRS student to land on the ship for the first time in their fleet platform. As a fighter pilot, I feel like I could use those valuable TRACOM dollars and time on more useful stuff.

I don't know what to do about the E2 community, not my area of expertise. I do feel that if I can teach a student to land on the ship solo, then an FRS IP could show him how to do it from the right seat.
 

hdr777

Well-Known Member
pilot
I don't know what to do about the E2 community, not my area of expertise. I do feel that if I can teach a student to land on the ship solo, then an FRS IP could show him how to do it from the right seat.

Obviously you said not your area of expertise, but would they stop sending E2 people to 45's, and just have us complete the full multi-engine syllabus? Not sure what the point of going to the 45's would be anymore if not to CQ
 

wlawr005

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pilot
Contributor
Your guess is as good as mine. I think if CQ goes away the T45 won't be terribly far behind. Bureaucratic contract hand wringing will ensue, but the wheels would be in motion.
 

RandomGoat1248

Well-Known Member
Your guess is as good as mine. I think if CQ goes away the T45 won't be terribly far behind. Bureaucratic contract hand wringing will ensue, but the wheels would be in motion.

I know as students our opinions aren't worth anything, but I really hope they don't get rid of the CQ or the 45 for E-2 guys anytime soon.

They would have to be major changes to the T-44 E2/C2 syllabus before they through students straight from the T-44 to the E-2.
 
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