Do you use an iPad in the cockpit? Would you?

[scoober78]

Again, look at the IFC. It's pretty limited on what you can legaly use an iPad for in flight

To add onto this...my squadron stan office just put out an email that said "All VT-x personnel stop flying with the iPad. Now."

Once again, a case where the hidebound club that is NA (God love it...) is anxious about something that makes life easier.

 

[phrogpilot73]

All VT-x personnel stop flying with the iPad. Now.

I love it. An AMB would probably say that it is a causal factor because they clearly violated instructions. Even though it provides more SA than paper charts.

Tested mine out today on my NATOPS check (and the NATOPS checker is retiring soon, and is headed towards civilian flight jobs), and I can't see ANY arguments against it. I'm not playing Angry Birds, I'm looking at the same fucking charts I would be if they were paper. Only they show WX. And TFRs. And where I am.

After testing it out today, I realized that I spent less time heads down in the cockpit with the iPad than I would if I was navigating with paper charts. I guess that's a bad thing, since I'm supposed to be filing for IFR to the max extent practical.

 

[Brett327]

Come on guys, there's a process for this. Follow the IFC guidelines - deviate at your own (and your crew's) peril. We don't get to make up our own rules in this business. If it were explicitly prohibited to use in your NATOPS manuals, would you be so eager to try it out?

 

[CumminsPilot]

Prohibited Maneuver: Day-VFR cross country leg, using SA building devices to ease pilot work load.

Ya, sounds terrible.

 

[phrogpilot73]

Come on guys, there's a process for this. Follow the IFC guidelines - deviate at your own (and your crew's) peril. We don't get to make up our own rules in this business. If it were explicitly prohibited to use in your NATOPS manuals, would you be so eager to try it out?

After having worked at NAVAIR and realizing that the right hand often doesn't talk to the left up there, and sometimes the right thumb isn't even talking to the right pinky, I don't put a lot of stock in some of their IFCs. Using an iPad as a replacement for paper charts (with the paper charts in a nav bag in the cabin if the iPad shits) isn't exactly putting my crew in peril.

You're right, we don't make up our own rules - but sometimes the rules are fucking dumb. Case in point - in order to take another helicopter pilot flying on a cross T/M/S flight (aka take a CH-53E pilot up on a day fam), he has to fly with an ANI/NI. Flight surgeon? Just has to be with a HAC. What sense does that make? One guy has gone through the entire HT syllabus, knows how to fly a helicopter, he just doesn't have an intricate knowledge of the systems of my aircraft. The other may or may not have gone through an abbreviated HT syllabus (when I took my flight surgeon up, the first time she had touched the controls of a helicopter was when I said "You have the controls"), but you're allowed to schedule them with someone who's LESS experienced?!?

 

[Brett327]

After having worked at NAVAIR and realizing that the right hand often doesn't talk to the left up there, and sometimes the right thumb isn't even talking to the right pinky, I don't put a lot of stock in some of their IFCs. Using an iPad as a replacement for paper charts (with the paper charts in a nav bag in the cabin if the iPad shits) isn't exactly putting my crew in peril.

You're right, we don't make up our own rules - but sometimes the rules are fucking dumb. Case in point - in order to take another helicopter pilot flying on a cross T/M/S flight (aka take a CH-53E pilot up on a day fam), he has to fly with an ANI/NI. Flight surgeon? Just has to be with a HAC. What sense does that make? One guy has gone through the entire HT syllabus, knows how to fly a helicopter, he just doesn't have an intricate knowledge of the systems of my aircraft. The other may or may not have gone through an abbreviated HT syllabus (when I took my flight surgeon up, the first time she had touched the controls of a helicopter was when I said "You have the controls"), but you're allowed to schedule them with someone who's LESS experienced?!?

I agee with your sentiment, believe me, and I doubt whether a mishap board would uphold it as a legit causal factor, but it's a slippery slope. As long as you and your crew undestand the potential for getting administratively raped in case something bad goes down... like I said - use it at your own peril. Worth the risk? That's why you get paid the big bucks.

 

[BigBadBoJenkins]

Reviving a semi-dead thread

When I was back on a ship maintaining a missile launcher, they transitioned us to using a laptop (toughbook) instead of paper pubs. We reduced our paper load to one set of pubs that stayed in the shop, and the toughbook went everywhere with us. We inserted changes by copying new PDFs in about 30 seconds. It was incredibly convenient, and never broke (we did some "testing" down a few ladderwells). Overall, worth it. That being said, ipads would probably break a lot easier than a toughbook, and unless each pilot has their own ipad that they are responsible for, they won't last long. What's that saying? If everyone uses it, but no one owns it, it will never get taken care of. That's how it was for small arms anyways.

 

[jtmedli]

Reviving a semi-dead thread

When I was back on a ship maintaining a missile launcher, they transitioned us to using a laptop (toughbook) instead of paper pubs. We reduced our paper load to one set of pubs that stayed in the shop, and the toughbook went everywhere with us. We inserted changes by copying new PDFs in about 30 seconds. It was incredibly convenient, and never broke (we did some "testing" down a few ladderwells). Overall, worth it. That being said, ipads would probably break a lot easier than a toughbook, and unless each pilot has their own ipad that they are responsible for, they won't last long. What's that saying? If everyone uses it, but no one owns it, it will never get taken care of. That's how it was for small arms anyways.

Ipads are a little tougher than they look and, even with an inch of rubber around them, they'd still be smaller than 4 approach plates, 10 different charts, and god knows whatever else you're required to carry.

 

[KBayDog]

Ipads are a little tougher than they look and, even with an inch of rubber around them, they'd still be smaller than 4 approach plates, 10 different charts, and god knows whatever else you're required to carry.

Sounds good, but lemme ask you: Aside from a cross-country, when did you ever need four approach plates and ten charts in the aircraft, much less the cockpit? iProducts may be a good solution for fast-movers, especially those with very cramped cockpits, but I'm not convinced that they're the right answer for helicopters...yet.

Even my most fully-stocked nav bag took up next to no space under a troop seat in the Phrog. The maximum I ever had in the cockpit (non-tactical) was my kneeboard, appropriate sectional or TAC, and local approach plate, which was used 99% of the time for the airfield diagrams, vice approaches. (Remember, we in Chopper Command are primarily VFR pilots.) If I needed any of those zany RI pubs, I'd just ask my crew chief to pass them forward. It was never a big deal.

(Stand by for some points that are probably repeated (multiple times, I bet) in the preceding seven pages, but I'm late for my Sunday AM run, and don't feel like reading through seven pages of resurrected thread.)

I get the desire to go paperless, and believe me, I'm all for it. Pubs are bulky, very expensive, and require a bunch of unnecessary-in-2012 work to remain current. That said, I'm not willing to put my life on the line by moving right to a COTS product unless it has been thoroughly (and I mean THOROUGHLY) tested:

-Will the iPad survive in the greenhouse known as a helicopter cockpit when the OAT is +50°C? (I use 50°, because there were many times in the Phrog when I couldn't FCF my aircraft during the day because the OAT was higher than 50, the OAT was required, but our testing equipment (and OAT gauge) wouldn't register temps that high.) I never brought a thermometer in the cockpit, but I'd be willing to bet that the interior temp was 60°+. (ECS, you say? Perhaps - but even the best ECS strains in our operating environments...and you'd have to assume that it works 100% of the time.)
-Will the iPad survive in salt/sand/dust/rain/etc.?
-What kind of inspection cycle would be required for these pubs computers, and who is going to do it (MALS/AIMD/NCMI/JMPS/no inspection)?
-Is it NVD compatible?
-Is it Marine-proof?
-What happens if I have to spend multiple days in the aircraft? Is there a way to charge the batteries?
-Who does the investigation when it ends up broken/missing/etc.? How do I get a replacement?
-What happens when (not if) it fails? Do I bring a spare, or do I honi my okole goodbye?

As I said, I'm not opposed to going paperless - but before I shed my time-tested olde-skool pubs, I just want an electronic product that is guaranteed to work when I need it. After all, as helicopter pilots, we tend to fly IFR only when we need to fly IFR (i.e, when we can't continue to operate in Class G and sneak into the field either VFR or SVFR), and I'm not yet willing to put my life in Tim Cook's hands.

With Life at the Speed of NAVAIR, though, I'll most likely be long-retired before this is ever a concern for me, anyhow.

 

[phrogpilot73]

After taking it out to Yuma/29 Palms I can answer some of your questions...

-Will the iPad survive in the greenhouse known as a helicopter cockpit when the OAT is +50°C?

Yes and no. If it gets too hot, it shuts itself off and you have to wait until it cools down. I saw 42 on the OAT, and as long as I kept it out of the sun, turned it on, referenced it, and turned it off (kinda like pulling a chart out, looking at it and putting it back in the map case), it was fine.

-Will the iPad survive in salt/sand/dust/rain/etc.?

Sand and dust, I got a bunch of it landing in the unprepared zones in both 29 Palms and Yuma, no problems. Rain/salt? Don't know - but if it's an iPad 2 or the next gen iPad, there are cases that are 100% waterproof.

-Is it NVD compatible?

They make an NVG compatible screen protector, that is not cheap. However, I tested mine with goggles and with the screen brightness turned down it was fine.

-Is it Marine-proof?

If you get a rugged case (like the lifeproof that is also water/sand/dust/snow/shock proof)

-What happens if I have to spend multiple days in the aircraft? Is there a way to charge the batteries?

Here's something I did not know about the Phrog. There's a way to plug into the aircraft's electrical and get 110 volt AC. Found this out from one of our pilots that was at HMX at one point, and he said they used it all the time.

-What happens when (not if) it fails? Do I bring a spare, or do I honi my okole goodbye?

I brought a full pubs bag with me for the CCX, and used my personal Nav bag when we were in Yuma. Didn't touch either (except for a PCL) the entire time. If we were to go 100% paperless, my bet would be that you would bring a spare iPad.

I just want an electronic product that is guaranteed to work when I need it.

With Life at the Speed of NAVAIR, though, I'll most likely be long-retired before this is ever a concern for me, anyhow.

The iPad is pretty close to that requirement of yours. Is it 100% yet? No, but it's probably at about 90-95%. I will say that the NGA app sucks, and foreflight is worlds better. And I agree, you'll be LONG retired before a paperless solution is introduced to the fleet as a whole... Here's some pics for you to check out:

The iPad still doesn't turn off the IFF Caution light...

This is the screen shot just outside Pilot's Knob, after I turned the brightness down. No impact to the goggles that me or my copilot could see...

Some things I wish foreflight did better? Really only one. It doesn't show where you are on the approach plate/airport diagram. The GPS only displays where you are when you're on one of the maps.

 

[scoolbubba]

Geo referenced approaches should be coming out on foreflight in the near future.

 

[KBayDog]

The iPad still doesn't turn off the IFF Caution light...

Fact: There's only one thing that will turn off the IFF Caution Light:

In any event, thanks for your review. Sounds like you put it through its paces.

That said, AW no longer a virtual ready room, where people are free to brainstorm, play devil's advocate, or even share experiences that may differ from conventional wisdom. No, as was made abundantly clear in another thread, if you are going to make a case for or against something on AW, your individual, purely anecdotal "evidence" isn't enough. Nor is your opinion. You must come to AW with hard data points (preferably on a quad-slide PPT) that you plan to sell to someone with stars on their collars.

So, Stinky, thanks but no thanks. Your review means nothing to me.

 

[Brett327]

Come on dude. Everyone knows you don't need to study iPad use in the cockpit... but you do need an IFC. I wonder how they generate those?

 

[phrogpilot73]

Come on dude. Everyone knows you don't need to study iPad use in the cockpit... but you do need an IFC. I wonder how they generate those?

You do need an IFC? Nope. You don't. I brought mine in, without an IFC. Am I playing with fire? In your mind, yes. But as an ASO who's actually sat on an AMB - I would say, no. Why? It would be brought up as a possibly causal factor - then rejected. Why? Because if you look at the screen shots, it provides me weather/convective SIGMET/TFR overlays in addition to the paper charts that I am required to bring. So, it actually BUILDS my SA more than a paper chart - and that's why an AMB would reject it as a causal factor.

 

[Brett327]

You do need an IFC? Nope. You don't. I brought mine in, without an IFC. Am I playing with fire? In your mind, yes. But as an ASO who's actually sat on an AMB - I would say, no. Why? It would be brought up as a possibly causal factor - then rejected. Why? Because if you look at the screen shots, it provides me weather/convective SIGMET/TFR overlays in addition to the paper charts that I am required to bring. So, it actually BUILDS my SA more than a paper chart - and that's why an AMB would reject it as a causal factor.

I hear what you're saying, and I believe we've already been down this road. I know you believe what you're saying to be true.