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Do you use an iPad in the cockpit? Would you?

What are your feelings on institution of an iPad type device as a replacement for a chart/pub bag?


  • Total voters
    130

Purdue

Chicks Dig Rotors...
pilot
Fellow AirWarriors,

I'm doing a Master's Research paper on the costs and incentives to switch from paper flight pubs to an electronic display device like an iPad.

I know some of you have made the switch, or have info into the situation, and I'd appreciate talking to some of you. If you have experience with this, or know some of the associated costs (or cost savings) of your unit switching to an iPad I would REALLY appreciate a PM or e-mail.

Specific things that come ot my mind are:
*Costs of acquiring devices
*Current costs of purchasing pubs throughout the year
*Costs of purchasing electronic versions of the pubs vice paper copies
*Costs savings of not having to ship boxes of new pubs to the squadron
*Ability/problems with updating pubs electronically when deployed
*Any problems you have actually experienced
*Airframe distinctive issues (Helo vs Jet vs Larger fixedwing)

I know this has been implemented in some places (http://www.popsci.com/technology/article/2012-02/air-force-buying-ipads-replace-flight-bags or http://www.dodbuzz.com/2011/06/10/marine-aviators-new-weapon-the-ipad/)

Again, it's a "Cost Accounting" course in my masters program I'm writing this for. So, I'm not too much touching on the issues of security/EKMS concerns, warzone survivability, etc. I'm specifically trying to find some detailed numbers I can use to argue the monetary feasability of introduction. How much your squadron is spending on pubs, or how much the Navy is spending. Sorry to reach out on here, but it's only a 20 page paper... and the assignment has a two week turnaround. So, it's kind of a glossing over of the issue... but I'm legitimaterly interested in it as well, and may snowball this into a larger research issue down the road (although it looks like the Navy has already done some exhaustive research into the issue... I just cant find it!)

~Purdue
 

hobbstc

Member
None
When I was in instruments my IP used his iPad with Foreflight in the cockpit. I used the paper pubs but he backed everything up with it. I carry all the FMs I need on mine and have Foreflight as well but don't use it in the cockpit yet as I'm still in school.
 

robav8r

Well-Known Member
None
Contributor
Purdue - I attended the Aviation Week Laureate Awards last month and competed against the American Airlines Electronic Flight Bag team. The POC was Henry Putek, Jr., B-777 captain and Electronic Flight Bag (EFB) team leader. I spoke with him at length about how they installed iPad's into the cockpit and how they utilized them. The other interesting part of the discussion was how they "coordinated" with the FAA to get a flight clearance.
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Fellow AirWarriors,

I'm doing a Master's Research paper on the costs and incentives to switch from paper flight pubs to an electronic display device like an iPad.

I know some of you have made the switch, or have info into the situation, and I'd appreciate talking to some of you. If you have experience with this, or know some of the associated costs (or cost savings) of your unit switching to an iPad I would REALLY appreciate a PM or e-mail.

Specific things that come ot my mind are:
*Costs of acquiring devices
*Current costs of purchasing pubs throughout the year
*Costs of purchasing electronic versions of the pubs vice paper copies
*Costs savings of not having to ship boxes of new pubs to the squadron
*Ability/problems with updating pubs electronically when deployed
*Any problems you have actually experienced
*Airframe distinctive issues (Helo vs Jet vs Larger fixedwing)

I know this has been implemented in some places (http://www.popsci.com/technology/article/2012-02/air-force-buying-ipads-replace-flight-bags or http://www.dodbuzz.com/2011/06/10/marine-aviators-new-weapon-the-ipad/)

Again, it's a "Cost Accounting" course in my masters program I'm writing this for. So, I'm not too much touching on the issues of security/EKMS concerns, warzone survivability, etc. I'm specifically trying to find some detailed numbers I can use to argue the monetary feasability of introduction. How much your squadron is spending on pubs, or how much the Navy is spending. Sorry to reach out on here, but it's only a 20 page paper... and the assignment has a two week turnaround. So, it's kind of a glossing over of the issue... but I'm legitimaterly interested in it as well, and may snowball this into a larger research issue down the road (although it looks like the Navy has already done some exhaustive research into the issue... I just cant find it!)

~Purdue
I don't think you're going to find any big bicture/big navy answers to your questions here, particularly WRT cost. Cost of paper pubs is at a DoD or higher level. Cost of the devices would depend on what kind of contract could be negotiated with the suppliers vs the numbers needed in the fleet. My opinion is that the current culture in naval Aviation would be to use electronic pubs as a backup to paper pubs, so that muddies the water a bit too. There's another long thread on here recently discussing some of the other issues you're bringing up.

With a 2 week turn-around and 20 page requirement, my advice to you is to fabricate your evidence and hope of for the best. :D I don't think your underlying questions are easily answerable without doing a LOT of legwork and making some assumptions based upon incomplete information which may or may not completely undermine your thesis.
 

HAL Pilot

Well-Known Member
None
Contributor
You forgot the most important thing an iPad provides in the cockpit.....entertainment! I love using mine to ply games or watch movies during those long flights.....
 

wlawr005

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
Maybe I'm dumb, but I don't see the requirement. Paper is easy, you can write on it, highlight it, they have a hundred copies of the things in Pubs, it fits in your bag. To me, it's easier to flip through a book, turn a page, highlight something I'm interested in looking at later, etc. Even on my Kindle, it's tough to flip through something and find something on a specific page, or a picture. Also, it's tough to look at a huge chart on a small screen unless you are already pretty familiar with the chart. Plus, like Brett said, the Navy isn't going to get rid of paper pubs. You'll still have to carry them as backups in case your battery dies, screen fails, coffee is spilled on it, etc. Nothing ever goes away in the military, shit just gets added on. Not to mention the fact that you'd be upgrading/changing the thing every 4-8 weeks, just like we do with paper pubs. I think it would be harder to upgrade 20 iPads than it would be to throw three boxes of pubs in the recycle bin and put new ones on the shelf. Paperless isn't always better, just ask the FDO's that have to deal with TIMS on a daily basis. As soon as it crashes or slows down they can't update the schedule, planes can't get issued, gradesheets can't be submitted. It's a clusterfuck.

CNATRA sent out a survey asking about the e-bookbag and what we thought about switching to e-FTIs and other stuff. I personally don't like it...again, I like to have pages to flip through, highlight, and study later rather than flipping through page by page on a screen.
 

ea6bflyr

Working Class Bum
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
You forgot the most important thing an iPad provides in the cockpit.....entertainment! I love using mine to ply games or watch movies during those long flights.....
At least you are not asleep like some others...
-ea6bflyr ;)
 

kmac

Coffee Drinker
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
CNATRA sent out a survey asking about the e-bookbag and what we thought about switching to e-FTIs and other stuff. I personally don't like it...again, I like to have pages to flip through, highlight, and study later rather than flipping through page by page on a screen.

You can't CTRL-F through paper. The find feature is awesome for when you need something fast. As for charts, you can zoom and get much more detailed with an electronic chart/graph than you can with paper. I'm definitely in favor of going toward electronic pubs. Of the courses I'm taking now, the ones with electronic documents are far easier to research than the paper-only copies.
 

xj220

Will fly for food.
pilot
Contributor
I would love to have an iPad in the cockpit. In the P-3 we have a lot more room and go to a wide variety of OCONUS fields. Having a Jepp account or using the DOD pubs would help out so much. As far as price, we could easily save a lot of money down the road. The initial buy in would be expensive, however the long term savings would be worth it. If you had pub bags with three iPads or so and checked them out of the duty office before each flight, you could help track them. Logs and Records would be responsible for update the iPads when new charts come out. You can have pubs covering the whole planet on iPad, reducing the amount of material you need to carry. Not only that, the visibility is top notch.
 

squorch2

he will die without safety brief
pilot
I think it would be harder to upgrade 20 iPads than it would be to throw three boxes of pubs in the recycle bin and put new ones on the shelf.
Obviously you missed the 5' stack of 30 lb. boxes labeled "CRITICAL TO FLIGHT SAFETY" sitting in the hallway this week. That stack comes every 8 weeks.

Contrast it with plugging in 20 iPads to charge at night while they auto-update their pubs with TCNs, etc.
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
Maybe I'm dumb, but I don't see the requirement. Paper is easy, you can write on it, highlight it, they have a hundred copies of the things in Pubs, it fits in your bag. To me, it's easier to flip through a book, turn a page, highlight something I'm interested in looking at later, etc. Even on my Kindle, it's tough to flip through something and find something on a specific page, or a picture. Also, it's tough to look at a huge chart on a small screen unless you are already pretty familiar with the chart. Plus, like Brett said, the Navy isn't going to get rid of paper pubs. You'll still have to carry them as backups in case your battery dies, screen fails, coffee is spilled on it, etc. Nothing ever goes away in the military, shit just gets added on. Not to mention the fact that you'd be upgrading/changing the thing every 4-8 weeks, just like we do with paper pubs. I think it would be harder to upgrade 20 iPads than it would be to throw three boxes of pubs in the recycle bin and put new ones on the shelf. Paperless isn't always better, just ask the FDO's that have to deal with TIMS on a daily basis. As soon as it crashes or slows down they can't update the schedule, planes can't get issued, gradesheets can't be submitted. It's a clusterfuck.

CNATRA sent out a survey asking about the e-bookbag and what we thought about switching to e-FTIs and other stuff. I personally don't like it...again, I like to have pages to flip through, highlight, and study later rather than flipping through page by page on a screen.

Not all Wings/Bases handle pubs the same way. At Mayport, it was up to the individual squadron to get their own pubs. At North Island, they have a centralized DMA office for everyone. I'm guessing Norfolk has the same thing. A huge problem I had at my last squadron was getting my hands on the pub I needed. Numerous times I would have to go to another squadron and see if they had a sectional for someplace more than a state away, so being able to have everything at one place would be great.

The big negative I see with the iPad is durability. In a P-3, it might not be as bad, but in helos, there is so much vibration and heat that I have a hard time believing they'd hold up, especially if an AW gets anywhere near them. Even in fixed-wing, there's so much vibration that you don't feel but an object set down on the surface somewhere will absorb. Put your helmet up against the window when you're flying sometime and you'll feel it.

We burned out a Garmin 695 in less than 2 weeks in Haiti, so I would just worry about the iPad being too fragile for use as the single point pub source, especially in a less hospitable environment like the desert.
 

robav8r

Well-Known Member
None
Contributor
Nothing ever goes away in the military, shit just gets added on . . . .

Not entirely true (possible threadjack). The P-8 is going to be a paperless A/C (at least from a navigation perspective - no more Nav Logs & paper charts). From the NAVAIR corner of the world, I see three, rapidly emerging issues being addressed. 1. Everything Training is moving towards synthetic, networked, AI capable training systems with LOTS of fidelity. If you haven't watched or been part of an FST event (yes, even all of you pointy nose folks), it's the wave of the future and will affect every community very soon if not already. 2. Networked sensors - not too much here on AW, but ask the P-8 & Growler folks what capability they are bringing to the Fleet and the emphasis on being able to share the same level of accuracy/fidelity across multiple platforms & communities. 3. Conversion of analog to digital information and their associated delivery systems. The electronic flight bag is growing larger in popularity and actual use evryday. Think of having your NATOPS, CSMM, all your checklists, all of your charts for every possible deployment site on your iPad ? It's already happening . . . .
 

HueyCobra8151

Well-Known Member
pilot
Gatordev: Skids have been using iPads in country for awhile, and I haven't heard of any durability issues (not that that doesn't mean there aren't any).
 

robav8r

Well-Known Member
None
Contributor
The big negative I see with the iPad is durability. In a P-3, it might not be as bad, but in helos, there is so much vibration and heat that I have a hard time believing they'd hold up . . . .

PMA-202 (Aircrew Survival Equipment) is working on a hardened, harsh-environment iPad case now for the Marines. I think it's already available - PM if you want more info.
 
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