This morning's A-pool idiocy...PT Policy and O vs PO open debate

[webmaster]

Of course you do.....you made invalid assumptions and posted only a one sided story when you started it. Now you have egg on your face.


............. And you're an Aggie too.

HAL, I went back and reread the first post, and the rest of the thread and I don't think the original poster was out of line raising the BS flag about today's events. What, about 5 posters in this thread were there?, the rest of us are getting incomplete pictures along with any preconceptions that we bring to the table regarding this discussion (I am definitely guilty of this).

If any thing, this thread highlighted the pitfalls of having an open JOPA meeting during a formation with enlisted personnel present.

 

[desertoasis]

...you made invalid assumptions and posted only a one sided story when you started it...

Only one of the assumptions I originally posted was incorrect, that the AM2 had been in the Navy longer than the person who was talking with him. I was incorrect, and I apologize for that. Everything else is still valid, that the A-pool shouldn't be complaining about having to PT 3 days a week, that we shouldn't hold ourselves above the heads of the Aircrew that has the power to down our aircraft, and so on.

I don't feel like I have egg on my face at all. I feel like this thread did exactly what it was supposed to do; discuss this morning's events. This was done, and the other side of the story was brought out. I don't have any regrets for starting it, because I still feel like the entire discussion this morning was ridiculous at its heart. I'm going to go to muster (or PT, rather) tomorrow with my head held just as high as it was this morning.

And me being an Aggie has nothing to do with anything. Again, an unnecessary addition to the discussion.

 

[SlickAg]

Just being MARRIED to one was bad enough.

Your ex went to A&M?

 

[fc2spyguy]

. . . that we shouldn't hold ourselves above the heads of the Aircrew that has the power to down our aircraft, and so on. . .

Okay, I fail to see the relevance here.

You're talking about PT standards, as has already been mentioned. Someone who is coming straight out of a commissioning source will not be at the same level of a group of people straight out of bootcamp, and in the middle of aircrew school. Now, there are exceptions, but that's just a fact. Now, I believe that was proven when you guys PT'd with them, no? As it was stated earlier, it is not beneficial to anyone to throw the two groups together.

 

[armada1651]

As it was stated earlier, it is not beneficial to anyone to throw the two groups together.

Agreed.

I certainly don't consider myself "better" than any enlisted aircrew. I understand that they're absolutely vital to our mission and that they deserve respect as human beings, as our aircrew, and as the people we're supposed to be leading. And there's no question, as officers, we SHOULD be leading by example, and no question that as a group, we have not been. SNAs and SNFOs failing the API PRT is completely unsat and needs to be fixed, nobody's denying that. But this isn't remedying that problem; it's merely making it apparent to a group of people that are looking up to us.

I would have no problem with us PTing with the aircrew if the roles were reversed: if we were squared away and THEY were the ones jacked up and in need of some motivation. But it seems to me completely counterintuitive and counterproductive to address our failure to lead by example by placing us in the environment where it will do the most possible damage.

 

[HAL Pilot]

1. You do not berate someone who has positional authority over you in a public setting. I don't care if he's enlisted. You may be an officer now, but that doesn't mean you're on a pedestal. He knows better than you, and that's not a matter of opinion. It's a fact. If he's yelling at you, he's doing it for a reason (i.e. to tell you you're being ridiculous), and he's been in the Navy a hell of a lot longer than you.

Just because he has positional authority over you, it does not mean he has the right to be disrespectful or yell at you. If fact, he does NOT have this right. Further, there are many in positions of authority and who have been in the Navy a hell of a lot longer that do NOT know better. If Jersey said what she posted she did, she was entirely correct in doing so.

2. If the NASC standards says we SHALL PT three days a week, why are we even having this discussion? You should be PTing anyways. It's TWO hours out of your day...what else do you have to do that's so important?

Agreed

3. A-pool is a paid vacation, everyone knows that...and somehow the ensigns keep finding ways to screw it up by saying that we are doing too much work. Welcome to the Navy, this will be the easiest time you'll have in the fleet. This is your JOB, and taxpayer dollars are going towards you mustering for half an hour in the auditorium. Imagine what the public would think if they knew that we were pulling this crap, getting paid with their money. It's not too much to ask that you follow the rules of your job. Start putting out or get the hell out of my Navy, and make room for someone who's willing to put the effort out.

Up until the word "Imagine", I agreed. Everything after imagine if pontificating. YOUR Navy? I got news for you, there are many in that A pool including the Ensign who spoke up that know a lot more about YOUR Navy than you do.

4. "We're not Aircrew...we don't have to do this stuff." Ummmm, yes you are, and yes you do. Any SNA or SNFO who doesn't think they are aircrew should readjust their attitude or put on black shoes and go to periscope depth. Are you involved with the safe operation of the aircraft? Answer yes, and you're aircrew. Deal with it.

But you are not part of the Aircrew school - see my early post on mixing the A-pool Os with aircrew school Es. This was an ill-advised decision. Further, what do you know about being aircrew, SNA or SNFO let alone about black shoes or bubbleheads? Is this your vast experience in the fleet talking?

5. ENSIGNS ARE NOT ENTITLED TO A THING EXCEPT THE OPPORTUNITY TO LEARN FROM PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN IN THE NAVY LONGER THAN THEY HAVE. Money is being invested in you, the least you can do is pretend to appreciate the opportunity. Nothing chaps me more than idiots who think they are entitled. You've been in the Navy for a month, maybe two. You don't know jack.

This is the biggest piece of Bull Shit you've spouted yet. Ensigns are officers and many have prior fleet experience and leadership experience from non-Navy life. Ensigns are entitled to all the respect of an officer, no matter their experience level. It might be true that Ensigns are expected to learn from their senior Es and Chiefs, but the senior E's and Chiefs also know where the line is drawn. In the end, the Ensign is senior and the good senior Es and Chiefs know this and respect this. And an Ensign that doesn't know this should not be an officer. There is a difference between thinking you are "entitled" and knowing exactly what you are "entitled" to.. I think Jersey knows the difference.

This morning was the most embarrassing thing I have ever seen.

And from what I am reading from others that were there, it was for the PO2.

the A-pool shouldn't be complaining about having to PT 3 days a week,

Agreed

that we shouldn't hold ourselves above the heads of the Aircrew that has the power to down our aircraft, and so on.

You are an officer, you are higher in the pecking order. This doesn't mean you don't respect them, but you are the officer and that has its "entitlements"

And me being an Aggie has nothing to do with anything. Again, an unnecessary addition to the discussion.

Again, lighten up Francis.

 

[HAL Pilot]

HAL, I went back and reread the first post, and the rest of the thread and I don't think the original poster was out of line raising the BS flag about today's events. What, about 5 posters in this thread were there?, the rest of us are getting incomplete pictures along with any preconceptions that we bring to the table regarding this discussion (I am definitely guilty of this).

I agree he wasn't out of line bring it up for discussion, I just think he needs to get off his soapbox - it makes me climb on mine and I get grouchy because I have arthritis in my knees...

If any thing, this thread highlighted the pitfalls of having an open JOPA meeting during a formation with enlisted personnel present.

Agree 100%

 

[statesman]

Quote:

If any thing, this thread highlighted the pitfalls of having an open JOPA meeting during a formation with enlisted personnel present.

Agree 100%

It should be noted that NO ONE knew he was there. Maybe we should have checked, and I would bet that if another JOPA meeting is held in the future someone will be looking for the very sneaky AM2, but I dont think anyone expected him to emerge from the darkness the way he did.

 

[KCOTT]

or....You can just bide your time until you class-up and leave the problem behind.

Option #2 pretty much eliminates the right to complain.

that's my strategy right now...a-pool isn't worth my sweat and tears...i'll class up and never think of it again

 

[BarrettRC8]

Further, any idiot should have realized that aircrew candidates are going to be PTing at a level above the average Sailor / officer. You don't send a bunch of newly commissioned officers out to PT with a bunch of junior enlisted folk in this type of environment. Even if the Os were on their best behavior, the aircrew candidates would probably out perform most of them and the junior Es would lose some respect for Os. (I see this as similar to throwing a newly commissioned NROTC guy into the middle of an OCS PT session).

Granted, I'm a Marine and not a naval officer, but as an officer in the United States military with the desire to put my best foot forward always, I don't understand why this is the case - Especially considering the amount of free time everyone has down here.

Look everyone,

And a special thanks to Bevo, ImfromJersey, and every other poster who has contributed to this thread in a memorable, if not constructive, way. I've rather enjoyed it!

 

[statesman]

Would you be surprised if the line had been:

Further, any idiot should have realized that SEAL candidates are going to be PTing at a level above the average Sailor / officer.

Not suggesting that ACC and SEAL candidates are at the same level of physical intensity, but the reality is that there are Rates / designators / MOS' that are more physically intensive than others. I think HAL was saying that AC candidates are one of those groups.

 

[desertoasis]

Just because he has positional authority over you, it does not mean he has the right to be disrespectful or yell at you. If fact, he does NOT have this right. Further, there are many in positions of authority and who have been in the Navy a hell of a lot longer that do NOT know better. If Jersey said what she posted she did, she was entirely correct in doing so.

Jersey being a prior enlisted invalidates my whole point, and I agree that she was correct in her actions. I had hoped that the priors would know that I was not referring to them in my complaints against the ensigns this morning, since they have quite obviously not been in the Navy for only a few months. I guess I was wrong.

Up until the word "Imagine", I agreed. Everything after imagine if pontificating. YOUR Navy? I got news for you, there are many in that A pool including the Ensign who spoke up that know a lot more about YOUR Navy than you do.

Yes, MY Navy. I'm allowed to be proud of my service, and to call out people who don't put out the effort. And I will call out anyone who doesn't put out. It's not pontificating, it's doing my part to keep things good. Don't presume to belittle me for still having an idealist outlook.

But you are not part of the Aircrew school - see my early post on mixing the A-pool Os with aircrew school Es. This was an ill-advised decision. Further, what do you know about being aircrew, SNA or SNFO let alone about black shoes or bubbleheads? Is this your vast experience in the fleet talking?

I know that aviators and FO's don't fly alone. Neither do SWOs and submariners sail alone. I don't need vast fleet experience to know that loners sink, and they sink fast. There's nothing wrong with asking for help from the Es if they have expertise to give. In this case, the aircrew Chiefs had a PT curriculum that would help the pool out. I will grant that it may have been a poorly-EXECUTED decision, but I think it was a well-advised one, and one that reinforces something that Ensigns should know from the start; your Chiefs are you single best source of information about how the fleet works. My paltry two months of active duty taught me that, and I will not apologize for it.

This is the biggest piece of Bull Shit you've spouted yet. Ensigns are officers and many have prior fleet experience and leadership experience from non-Navy life. Ensigns are entitled to all the respect of an officer, no matter their experience level. It might be true that Ensigns are expected to learn from their senior Es and Chiefs, but the senior E's and Chiefs also know where the line is drawn. In the end, the Ensign is senior and the good senior Es and Chiefs know this and respect this. And an Ensign that doesn't know this should not be an officer. There is a difference between thinking you are "entitled" and knowing exactly what you are "entitled" to.. I think Jersey knows the difference.

I do think she knows the difference, and I think I do too. I know that I'm entitled to a salute and being called 'sir' and other military courtesy relevant to my rank, but beyond that, I'm not entitled to much beyond listening and learning. I'm fine with correcting someone who disrespects me, but I'm not going to presume to know more than anyone, because I only have two months active duty. Again, my complaint was directed at the Ensigns who are fresh out of college and still in that immature mindset.


I'm done with this thread. God bless.

 

[statesman]

Jersey being a prior enlisted invalidates my whole point, and I agree that she was correct in her actions. I had hoped that the priors would know that I was not referring to them in my complaints against the ensigns this morning, since they have quite obviously not been in the Navy for only a few months. I guess I was wrong.

I dont get this. Are you saying that if a USNA grad with no enlisted experience had done EXACTLY the same thing the situation would be different? Because thats what it sounds like.

 

[armada1651]

I do think she knows the difference, and I think I do too. I know that I'm entitled to a salute and being called 'sir' and other military courtesy relevant to my rank, but beyond that, I'm not entitled to much beyond listening and learning. I'm fine with correcting someone who disrespects me, but I'm not going to presume to know more than anyone, because I only have two months active duty. Again, my complaint was directed at the Ensigns who are fresh out of college and still in that immature mindset.

As one of those ensigns fresh out of college, I'm just gonna go ahead and say I'm getting sick of the whole, "You're just an ensign, you don't know anything...Oh, you were prior-enlisted like me? Nevermind, I'm sorry...let's go talk about how to run A-pool" bullshit.

I mean, while we're talking about misplaced senses of entitlement and all...

 

[BarrettRC8]

Would you be surprised if the line had been:

Further, any idiot should have realized that SEAL candidates are going to be PTing at a level above the average Sailor / officer.

Not suggesting that ACC and SEAL candidates are at the same level of physical intensity, but the reality is that there are Rates / designators / MOS' that are more physically intensive than others. I think HAL was saying that AC candidates are one of those groups.

While I understand your point, I don't think its entirely applicable. I would expect an officer SEAL candidate to be in better physical condition than the enlisted SEAL candidate, and they have to be IOT be selected from my understanding.

Now I'm not entirely familiar with aircrew candidates, but I'm assuming they are in the aircraft with the pilots/nfos. That alone means they should be on equal footing regarding physical prowess. The pilots/nfos being officers, and therefore the example, means that they should be that much stronger physically.

My $.02.