Which Ride?

[sevenhelmet]

100%. Other than for boutique corner cases for enthusiasts, the production of Big bore V8 motors is borderline immoral. Electrification of transport and electrification of day-to-day life support, for example, heating and cooling our homes and electrifying. Our daily transport needs is a moral imperative and our long-term survival depends on it.

There should be some degree of slut shaming with regards to the purchase and operation of Big bore internal combustion.

Says the guy who gets maybe 10mpg in his big bore-engined plane.

We need to build for efficiency and longevity. I draw the line at creating a culture of shaming people for owning something different, and/or forcing adoption of technology that is arguably still in its infancy. You want electric? Knock yourself out. Some of us are holding off because a.) today’s tech is still prone to rapid obsolescence and 2.) We already own reliable vehicles that are more cost effective to continue owning.

This spring, I spent $3000 on a 12 year old Mazda that I expect to be able to run for at least a decade as a trainer for my kids (one of them will probably be gifted it as their first car). Can’t do that with electric.

Show me an electric car that lasts 20 years, and has a closed material cycle with the next generation of car and batteries (oh, and increase the power density), and I’ll be interested.

 

[ChuckMK23]

Is that a joke?

Dead serious.

Have you seen the wildfires in Europe? Canada?

We need to vilify hydrocarbon consumption consumption for consumer use. That means penalizing individual citizens who are heating their homes with natural gas or oil as an example.

We are having an illegal war with Iran. It's is holding the whole world hostage over oil flow via the Straights.

What's the alternative? The planet is burning. We are on the road to extinction unless we use the power of government to change individual citizen behavior.

What's is the alternative? Our grandchildren are at mortal risk.

Do you see a positive upside to our demand for energy that comes from oil, gas?

 

[sevenhelmet]

Dead serious.



Do you see a positive upside to our demand for energy that comes from oil, gas?

Our continued existence? In a world without petroleum, we and our families would likely starve to death.

This is a tired argument, Chuck- petrochemicals have no replacement in terms of availability, power density, and portability. Yes, the climate is a serious concern. Yet we can’t up and replace all petroleum with anything effectively, and the material cost to the environment is even higher if we try and force it.

Efficiency and longevity. No matter what we do, 9B+ humans is going to have an effect.

 

[hscs]

Dead serious.

Have you seen the wildfires in Europe? Canada?

We need to vilify hydrocarbon consumption consumption for consumer use. That means penalizing individual citizens who are heating their homes with natural gas or oil as an example.

What's the alternative? The planet is burning. We are on the road to extinction unless we use the power of government to change individual citizen behavior.

What's is the alternative? Our grandchildren are at mortal risk.

Do you see a positive upside to our demand for energy that comes from oil, gas?

You are looking at the issue from a single point of view. If we change all of our cars right now to banana powered Delorians, that won’t do a thing to the climate. You fail to consider what it takes to make those batteries and then dispose of them properly. It’s a ton of power in places with fewer environmental regulations.

We are so spun up on consumer vehicles on the consumption side that we forget the enormous amount of power required to run data centers (even before AI). Frankly, we would be better off outlawing / deleting influencer accounts.

 

[sevenhelmet]

Frankly, we would be better off outlawing / deleting influencer accounts.

That’s a policy I could happily live with.

Don’t forget, the bananas only power Mr. fusion for the time circuits and the flux capacitor. The internal combustion engine runs on ordinary gasoline like it always has.

 

[sevenhelmet]

This is useful to the discussion, since climate was brought up. Note the far and away #1 producer of emissions- it isn’t cars.

Breakdown of carbon dioxide, methane, and nitrous oxide emissions by sector

How much do electricity, transport, and land use contribute to different greenhouse gas emissions?

ourworldindata.org

 

[taxi1]

petrochemicals have no replacement in terms of availability, power density, and portability.

How many gas stations are there, compared to electrical outlets?

We are having an illegal war with Iran. It's is holding the whole world hostage over oil flow via the Straights.

What's the alternative? The planet is burning. We are on the road to extinction unless we use the power of government to change individual citizen behavior.

I think thanks to the Iran war that we are hitting a tipping point. People who don’t give a damn about the climate care about energy security, and renewables plus storage equals energy security.

The least secure energy source is one that has to travel halfway around the world, transiting straits subject to control by bad actors. The most secure one is the one that falls in your lap from the sky. In the United States, we aren’t impacted directly since we are a net energy exporter at the moment, but the countries of Asia have been punched right in the nuts from the war in Iran. And so the technology growth curve for renewables and storage accelerates.

Both sides of the aisle should be able to agree that we need a far, far better electrical grid. I wish that was something that everybody could unite around in our country.

 

[sevenhelmet]

How many gas stations are there, compared to electrical outlets?

Wrong metric. See post #411. I maintain that transportation is not the primary driver of climate change. Electricity and heating for a rapidly expanding population is.

Fundamentally, we have to find our way to an economy that isn’t dependent on growth. I don’t know how that will work, but it will happen one way or another…

 

[Gatordev]

In more fun news, the inter-cooler and oil-cooler I had ordered a month ago finally shipped. These are the last two parts I've been waiting on for Operation UPGRADE. It's set to commence next week.

For @MIDNJAC , I still need to buy the ECU upgrade software, as well, and with that I'm thinking I should be able to get at least another 60-70 hp out of the N55.

 

[Swanee]

That means penalizing individual citizens who are heating their homes with natural gas or oil as an example.

This one is interesting. Buying a new construction house in 2020 in Michigan, I was not able to have electric heat. Code is for a gas fired HE furnace in new construction. My 150amp panel doesn't have the capacity for a heat pump (our AC is 30amp) or really even the capacity to finish off the basement. I have slots taken up for the car charger (50 amps) and the surge protector for the generator.

I do have a circuit run for an electric oven, but my oven is gas. I probably want to switch that over soon. Gas ovens are a pain.

 

[Flash]

Ehhh…I have a buddy from the Corps who retired to the Philippines. Last year he bought a BYD Sealion and genuinely regrets the decision. He notes the cockpit technology is fantastic, to the degree it can tell if he or his wife sit in the drivers seat and adjusts accordingly. The joy ends there. He notes countless mechanical issues, extremely poor craftsmanship, and zero dealer support (as in no none of the dealers have repair shops). As he put it, he bought a $12K SUV that lasted just over a year. He notes that a Tesla Model Y (comparable in size) costs about five times more but is likely to last 10 times longer.

I do agree that China is beating us at the EV software game but I’m not convinced their quality (or safety standards) are even close to those EVs readily available in the U.S. On the order hand I’m very interested in new sodium battery technology and the EREV (extended range electric vehicle) concepts coming to dealerships in the next few years.

The number of EV manufacturers in China has exploded over the last few years and the market will almost certainly see only a small percentage of them survive as a lot are operating at a loss right now. The Chinese government is allowing it all to happen, expecting the winners to help them dominate the EV market in the next few years.

I agree that Chinese cars in general have a lot of quality and safety concerns but many other countries that have thriving auto industries started out the same way, and some still have them...*cough*Stellantis*cough*. I also think the quality and safety in the US is higher but the challenge is the cost, where most of the EV choices out there are more expensive than the average car with only a few models, limited to a few manufacturers, are less than $40k. Those were all big factors when I was looking at my most recent car purchase with an eye to affordability, reliability and energy savings.

I'm also intrigued by EREV's and their possibilities, Chevy's Volt was one but wasn't the best implementation but given that it's tech is now over a decade old I would hope the next gen of EREV's is much better.

Show me an electric car that lasts 20 years, and has a closed material cycle with the next generation of car and batteries (oh, and increase the power density), and I’ll be interested.

Tesla's Roadster and Model S are getting pretty close, introduced in 2008 and 2012 with the Model S being Tesla's first mass-produced car and still widely available.

 

[Swanee]

EV adoption will largely be a middle to upper class thing in the USA for a few reasons. While it's true that most people only drive a few miles a days, most people don't have access to a level 2 charger in their garage. My 80kWh battery gets me 250 miles in the summer, and about 180 in the winter. That's no problem for me for 99% of the driving I do, and it's super cheap when I fill up overnight in my garage at 10cents a kWh.

Charging out in town isn't really cheap (I just paid 60cents a kWh plus a 49cent fee in Traverse City while on a road trip), and it's not as convenient as filling up at a gas station (that's changing, with 7-11 and Wawa both rolling out hyper-fast EV chargers).

Where this really gets crummy is for those people who don't have at home charging solutions. They don't save much money over fuel, and the convenience factor isn't there. So you have either be an EV enthusiast, or have chargers available at your place of business.

L1 charging works for some people who have the convenience of a 110/120 outlet access for their car at home or work, and only drive less than 20 miles a day.

Once people who live in apartment complexes, etc.. have easy capabilities too charge, and also have vehicle options in EV that compete with a 1998 Honda Civic, we might see them adopt to EV tech. I think that will take a lot more government intervention that what we'll see with any Republican administration, or controlled House or Senate. Even then, I think they'll repeal any advancements made in that regard.



If someone wants a big, stupid, truck- go buy a big, stupid, truck. I like to make fun of people who buy them without a real reason to use them. I also find it insane that there are people who would significantly benefit financially from a vehicle that is either very fuel efficient for a lot of over the road travel, or from buying an EV and charging it in their garage, but who buy a giant truck because, "It looks cool and I like it." Looking cool is expensive.

 

[taxi1]

L1 charging works for some people who have the convenience of a 110/120 outlet access for their car at home or work, and only drive less than 20 miles a day.

My understanding is you can get 30-50 miles of charge into a car overnight with an L1 charger. You can also take it with you and plug it in wherever you go, i.e., camping at a site with electricity.

An L2 charger is about equivalent to having wiring for an electrical cloths dryer or oven, right? Large appliance?

Topic drift: we did a project for ARPA-E (Dept of Energy's DARPA) looking at batteries and alternative other fuels for the railroad network. Expected cost, expected energy efficiency, expected growth in the technology, etc. Where they really shine is in hilly country, where they regenerate the energy on the downhill and store it back in the battery. We looked at mixed consists with some standard diesel-electric and some pure battery/electric. Best of both worlds. It's coming.

 

[sevenhelmet]

My understanding is you can get 30-50 miles of charge into a car overnight with an L1 charger. You can also take it with you and plug it in wherever you go, i.e., camping at a site with electricity.

An L2 charger is about equivalent to having wiring for an electrical cloths dryer or oven, right? Large appliance?

Topic drift: we did a project for ARPA-E (Dept of Energy's DARPA) looking at batteries and alternative other fuels for the railroad network. Expected cost, expected energy efficiency, expected growth in the technology, etc. Where they really shine is in hilly country, where they regenerate the energy on the downhill and store it back in the battery. We looked at mixed consists with some standard diesel-electric and some pure battery/electric. Best of both worlds. It's coming.

I hope you’re right. Railroads are notoriously cheap and slow to adopt new tech.

 

[sevenhelmet]

If someone wants a big, stupid, truck- go buy a big, stupid, truck. I like to make fun of people who buy them without a real reason to use them. I also find it insane that there are people who would significantly benefit financially from a vehicle that is either very fuel efficient for a lot of over the road travel, or from buying an EV and charging it in their garage, but who buy a giant truck because, "It looks cool and I like it." Looking cool is expensive.

How about a normal-sized, paid off truck that gets 28mpg on diesel and gets routinely loaded up with stuff and used as a truck?

You have an excellent point though- owning a pickup is the financial equivalent of a low to mid-level luxury vehicle (or a typical EV in terms of acquisition cost). A lot of the big pickup crowd is leveraged to the hilt with debt and depreciation.

I have no problem with the idea of electric vehicles. I find them interesting. They just don’t work for my current use case. That could change in the future if there is a long-lived, reasonably priced option with no required subscriptions to operate it normally.