Alright. . . I'll bite: Pilots of Asian Descent? How prevalent are they? (in VFA esp.)

[Swanee]

would you say this is because of the lack of POC entering USN in the first place? My post was basically a long way of asking "no one is going to be favored just because they're white, black, whatever", and to get a sense that yes, generally speaking, the better work you do, the better you fare, no matter your background.

Granted, commenters above have mainly answered this.

I've had a few long conversations with a former NCO I worked with about this. His background and my background are very different. I'm a middle class white guy who's dad was a career USAF/ANG fighter pilot. He is a lower working class black kid who's dad drove a cab and had an 8th grade education. My dad graduated from Cornell with a degree in mechanical engineering. My friend was the smartest man in his family as soon as he reached high school.

Yet, throughout all of it my friend, the NCO, was always the smartest guy in the room. This continued after we both left the USMC and worked for the same company on the civilian side. Later he graduated from a PHD program at Cornell.

Dude would have been just fine as a pilot. When I asked him, "hey man, you're smarter, faster, and better than me, why didn't you try to become and officer and a pilot?"

His response, "Swanee, while I might have seen a pilot on TV, the thought never ever crossed my mind. It's a matter of access, and for a guy like me I never thought it would be in the cards. It was a more reasonable thought for me to play in the NFL than to be a pilot."

Whereas I grew up with military pilots as mentors of mine, he did not.

This is where I really do believe that representation matters.

 

[JTS11]

One example I'll cite, is a Marine of Cambodian descent who had a long last name that was hard to pronounce for English speakers. He was dubbed P-19 for the fact his last name started with the letter P and consisted of 19 letters.

On its own, some might claim Racism!, but I think he was OK with it. Maybe I'm wrong, and it's my white privilege speaking...😆

At the same time, we had a white dude with Dutch ancestry who had a weird last name that everyone referred to as V-12.

There's always going to be some needling along ethnic lines, but I think it's among folks who are rowing in the same direction.

 

[zipmartin]

One example I'll cite, is a Marine of Cambodian descent who had a long last name that was hard to pronounce for English speakers. He was dubbed P-19 for the fact his last name started with the letter P and consisted of 19 letters.

On its own, some might claim Racism!, but I think he was OK with it. Maybe I'm wrong, and it's my white privilege speaking...😆

At the same time, we had a white dude with Dutch ancestry who had a weird last name that everyone referred to as V-12.

There's always going to be some needling along ethnic lines, but I think it's among folks who are rowing in the same direction.

In don't think that these examples are even necessarily ethnicity related, although they definitely could be. This is just the way Naval Aviation operates. I had a squadron mate, white-as-white can be, who's last name began with K and had 9 letters. Yep, his call sign was K-9, which later was shortened to Dog.

 

[JTS11]

In don't think that these examples are even necessarily ethnicity related, although they definitely could be. This is just the way Naval Aviation operates. I had a squadron mate, white-as-white can be, who's last name began with K and had 9 letters. Yep, his call sign was K-9, which later was shortened to Dog.

Yeah, I agree. I guess just clumsily trying to point out a situation where maybe some people might draw negative racial inferences, when it's not true.

 

[JTS11]

In don't think that these examples are even necessarily ethnicity related, although they definitely could be. This is just the way Naval Aviation operates. I had a squadron mate, white-as-white can be, who's last name began with K and had 9 letters. Yep, his call sign was K-9, which later was shortened to Dog.

Bit of a thread-jack. Callsigns/nicknames from my experience come from a place of love...but they can be brutal sometimes. Like you said, it's the way Naval Aviation operates.

I will say, we had a pilot of SE Asian origin that got the callsign.'Charlie'. I don't 'think' he was offended. He rose to the top iwith regards to quals/designations..

Not sure if that callsign would fly today.. 😆

 

[zipmartin]

It IS a different Navy today from when I served.

 

[ea6bflyr]

This is where I really do believe that representation matters.

Thanks for sharing that story @Swanee.

On the flip side, I grew up poor. Poor as in single mom + 5 children living in a single wide trailer wearing hand me down clothes poor.

I joined the Navy because my future options after high school weren't that good. I came in as a non-designated Airman. I worked my ass off as a blueshirt in the Air Department, V-1 division onboard the USS Enterprise from 1984-1986.

I never, in my wildest dreams, imagined that I would someday fly both as an aircrewman and an NFO. I attended AE A school in Millington TN and asked if I could fly, and after my flight physical, the answer was yes. This was my exposure and my opening.

As a crew chief in the RC-12F, UH-3A, and C-2A(R), I flew with some exceptional pilots that actively encouraged me to seek out a commission, which I did and commissioned through the now-defunct Enlisted Commissioning Program (ECP).

I retired many pay grades higher than I thought I’d achieve. I’m thankful for the opportunities and the Navy.

 

[Swanee]

Thanks for sharing that story @Swanee.

On the flip side, I grew up poor. Poor as in single mom + 5 children living in a single wide trailer wearing hand me down clothes poor.

I joined the Navy because my future options after high school weren't that good. I came in as a non-designated Airman. I worked my ass off as a blueshirt in the Air Department, V-1 division onboard the USS Enterprise from 1984-1986.

I never, in my wildest dreams, imagined that I would someday fly both as an aircrewman and an NFO. I attended AE A school in Millington TN and asked if I could fly, and after my flight physical, the answer was yes. This was my exposure and my opening.

As a crew chief in the RC-12F, UH-3A, and C-2A(R), I flew with some exceptional pilots that actively encouraged me to seek out a commission, which I did and commissioned through the now-defunct Enlisted Commissioning Program (ECP).

I retired many pay grades higher than I thought I’d achieve. I’m thankful for the opportunities and the Navy.

I think both stories show how the military presents an avenue for the ability to climb the socioeconomic ladder.

I tried to convince my friend to become an officer and take a crack at flight school, but he decided his path would go a different way. But it wasn't because he couldn't do it.

I think the military as a whole is as meritocratic as a bureaucracy can get.

We're still a subsection of our society and thusly we have the same troubles the rest of society does. But there are very few places out there where the entry level employee has a map to become the CEO.

 

[caburt1]

Source: I am Asian. P-8 pilot.

Your question is valid. I had similar questions and reservations when I was applying for OCS many many years ago. I was not sure if I would fit in or if I would be too "different". The "you can't be what you can't see" saying definitely applied in creating that reservation which probably feeds into the number of people of different backgrounds even applying but my desire to serve overcame all that. There is probably-definitely some self selecting-out bias . My concerns were widely dissolved in my experience.

The short answer to your question is Naval Aviation is as close as you can get to true meritocracy. Whether or not you wing in flight school, whether or not you qualify in your squadron, whether or not your crew trusts you to bring them home safely at the end of a mission on month 6 of your deployment on a rainy bouncy night after a 9+ hour flight is based solely on your skills and skills only. I have seen countless aviators of all races and gender succeed in whatever they pour their hearts into within the Naval Aviation enterprise. Their identity is not a factor at all.

The long answer to your question is the value system you grow up with absolutely effects how you carry yourself and the type of decisions you make. The more standard deviations you are away from a "regular" member of society or the wardroom, the more you stand out. I guess this applies to people of all backgrounds (socio-economic, race, gender, geographic etc) but I just have my very own anecdotal experience.

In case of Asian values, I think some cultural differences manifest themselves in very subtle ways. Depending on your upbringing, the east vs west cultural dichotomy might present itself to you and you will be subject to your very own sociological experiment. For example, I was raised with emphasis on values such as collectivism, humility, and listening more than talking. I know people of every background have these values but I just felt like I had it more than an average person in the wardroom. These values really helped me in some ways but it also worked against me in the sense that I did not put as much work to be visible. I was the guy who would silently do my work the best I could just because it was what I was supposed to do for the collective when what I saw valued more was someone who would do the work but also let it be known that it was done by them emphatically. Being a listener and a soft spoken person could be misconstrued as not being confident or not having leadership skills especially in a military setting when my upbringing taught me a good leader is a good listener who takes the time to understand the situation and people.

On whiteboard scenarios, sims, or missions, I also noticed I was more inclined to automatically make decisions motivated by Sun Tzu type philosophy (looking for solutions with least damage, not focusing on destruction of the adversary to win, thinking about non-military factors, avoiding fight to wait for a opportune time etc). This was directly in conflict with the more Clausewitzian doctrine (use of brute force, destruction of enemy, achieving victory through force, etc) that I found prevalent in the wardroom.

I have experienced some things that could be classified as microaggression. I had a sim instructor in primary who I had multiple sims with who was surprised to find out I was a Ensign in the US Navy and not one of Saudi's in training despite my uniform, the flag in my uniform. my interaction with him etc. I felt like all he saw was the color of my skin. I had a Program Manager (a GS employee) try to tell me I was arrange marriage-d in the presence of my wife when I had just told him the story of how I met her. I think of these as a reflection on those individuals and there are some bad apples but it is not the Navy itself.

I don't think "wokeness" defines the Navy or the Navy has gone "woke" but the Navy has definitely made it known that there is no tolerance for discrimination. Navy welcomes everyone from all facets of the American society so long as they are qualified and can perform. As far as subtle value differences, ultimately, diversity is good for diversity of opinion but you might find yourself a few standard deviations off in some things. Whether you conform or stay your way is completely your personal call.

This is just my rambling and only my personal anecdotal experience. I think there are multiple layers to what someone's experience than just your race but I can assure you race is a very very tiny variable in Naval Aviation.

 

[number9]

I'm not an aviator (just a dirty reservist) but you sound like a great dude to have in a squadron. 👍

 

[taxi1]

We had an E2 NFO from Korea (South, not North (we think)), which is one of the few aviator jobs where you really have to talk A LOT, and he spoke English poorly as a second language. Callsign was "Jogo" which was shortened from "No poy jogo" which he said all the time inadvertently. Great guy.