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Who's gonna call the ball? (Them's fightin' words..)

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor

Stone cold, my ornery friend. ;)

Once again, you missed my entire point, but I figured as much. Everything in my posts stands and folks who are interested in knowing the facts would be wise to consider the opinions of those who are "in the game" right now, not someone who hasn't waved (or flown) a pass in 20+ years. Paddles (you know who you are), I even value your opinion, but you're on the losing side of the argument. LSOs provide an invaluable service without which Carrier Aviation would cease to function. That said, they're not aviation gods and they're CERTAINLY not infallible. In fact, they're just another group of JOs being led around by a senior LT or baby O4 CAG Paddles who are only as good as their collective training and experience. They make mistakes and screw up just like any of us (and should be called out when that happens), so while I need them out on that platform, let's not lose sight of reality.

It's certainly amusing that the "NFO self-justification" card gets thrown out there, but it's the Pilots who are getting all bent out of shape. In the end, all your collective tirades are moot because WRT the NFO ball call, nothing is going to change.

Brett
 

a_m

Still learning how much I don't know.
None
The latest levity on the situation.


The Issue:

What we have here is a threat to our very way of life . The domino theory is a very apt analogy to the current situation of the WSO. If the fascist dictatorship of the pilot is to be stopped, battle lines must be drawn. I suggest drawing them in the sand . Consider the sand to be the ball call. If we, the proletariat of the WSO class, do not stand now, will we stand ever? What will be taken from us next? Soon, ICS will become optional, and shortly thereafter, instead of a connection for the WSO JHMCS, there will be a fuel tank with koch fittings that can be strapped into the back seat with the F/A-18F optional backseat fuel valve connection .

The General Threat, specifically:

“12. Ball call report — (side number, aircraft type, ball or Clara/Clara lineup, fuel state, hung/unexpended ordnance, coupled/uncoupling (if applicable), automatic/manual). The pilot shall initiate the ball call report.

Note
Landing Signal Officers derive important information from the pilot’s
voice inflection and tone during the ball call. Additionally, the pilot has the
most situational awareness concerning the type of pass, aircraft mode, and
ability to see the applicable visual landing aids. For these reasons, the pilot
at the controls of the aircraft shall initiate the ball call report to the Landing
Signal Officers.”

I put the previous part in quotes so that you, the reader and fellow revolutionary, will picture me saying these words out loud while making the quotes symbol with my hands. It is also a direct quote.

Variables:

Known: The WSO is generally regarded as 3/5 of a person. This is of course a falsehood based on smoke and mirrors and fancy math that pilots tend to do in a loud and obnoxious manner. A true WSO does not even consider himself a person, but an extension of both the aircraft and the pilot, including the part of the pilot that has the SA to make the ball call; therefore, the WSO exists in a different plane of being altogether, being both existential and relatively ambivalent simultaneously. This of course determines his predetermined path demanded by the dialectic of the existential proletarian WSO.

Furthermore, the WSO is less likely to argue with paddles because he has no idea what the fuck is going on.


Unknown: Things that are not under the WSO’s control: the length of the groove, angle of attack and its relationship to onspeed, auto vs. manual , hook to ramp clearance, hook to dhunt clearance, if you’ll be on the ball during the nightly prayer, flying a red ball all the way to touchdown, and looking long for lineup.

Things that are under the WSO’s control: the level of terror in his voice .

If the WSO is unable to make the ball call, and he can’t yell “power” at his pilot, then who is he to tell that he too is terrified of this soon to be night trap?

Solution:

There can be no failing to counter this threat. The WSO recommends the following changes be implemented to CV Natops:

1) The WSO shall call the ball for all aircraft, including CODs, E-2s, and single seat aircraft. In the event of no WSO available for ball call, either the WSO in the TTLR or no one will call the ball.
2) Pilot Comm switches shall be removed from the throttles so as the pilot does not confuse talking, calling the ball, and going to full blower leading to the inevitable bolter.
3) LSO’s shall cease and desist with the nonsense that they can sense how well the pilot is doing based on his tone of voice during the ball call. Think about what the pilot is doing. He has, of his own accord, decided to go flying at night or in shitty weather (necessitating Case 3 and the subsequent ball call) and decided that the best way to stop is by having something hanging off the back of his aircraft that is slightly curved and maybe it’ll catch this metal wire thing they strung across the deck. If he is not scared, he is stupid, and no self respecting WSO would want to be in that jet and call the ball anyway.
4) WSO’s shall be given boom mikes, allowing outside airflow into the comm transmission, which will allow paddles to hear if the pilot is screaming in the background or not.
5) All line periods shall include a WSO wave day, allowing WSO’s to interpret how scared the WSO’s calling the ball are and immediately reacting with the only intelligent response possible…”Wave off, wave off, WSO paddles”
6) Every 3rd WSO wave day will correspond with a WSO fly day, whereby the WSO takes the aircraft controls and the shitty ones are weeded out.
7) Soccer shall be banned from the ready room.
8) A new grading system shall be developed and adhered to: OK means you are alive and getting debriefed. – means that you are dead and you probably aren’t going to learn much from this debrief.


Note
Landing Signal Officers are overly sensitive pilots who
pride themselves on getting you, the WSO, aboard safely.
But have you ever looked at their landing grades?
Not that it matters to me, because every pass is a fucking mode 1.


1. Maybe you should get your own damn waypoint zero. And don’t threaten to replace me with some position on the switch that says IFA and will take an alignment regardless of what I do.
2. Drawing lines in the sand allows the WSO community to make very tough and demanding statements but backpedal at any time so as to follow the path of least resistance.
3. This portable back seat fuel tank could even be made to look like a WSO, replacing the back seat oxygen lines with JP-5 lines.
4. Reference legal case of Stabs MacGhee vs. the real pilot, 2007, serialized in the article “Is anybody really flying the damn ball?”
5. Inversely proportional to the level of competence in the front seat…WSOterror = √(1/PilotSHITTINESS)2
 

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
Stone cold, my ornery friend. ;)

Once again, you missed my entire point, but I figured as much. Everything in my posts stands and folks who are interested in knowing the facts would be wise to consider the opinions of those who are "in the game" right now, not someone who hasn't waved (or flown) a pass in 20+ years....
Right ... as usual, when someone doesn't share your particular version of reality or 'critical thinking' (to coin one of your favorite concepts) ... they just ''missed (your) entire point" ... but you figured as much ... like you said.

What an arrogant SOB you most certainly are in the cockpit ... you need to fly w/ someone who's not intimidated by your screed. I'd flush you out of my cockpit (military OR civie-street) so fast you wouldn't know what hit you. You've chased a couple of better men than you'll ever be off this website w/ your ... 'tactics', shall we say (???) ... but it ain't gonna' happen this time. I've seen your 'type' on all too many occasions over the past 40+ years of aviating and I recognize the characteristics, the attitude, and the self-aggrandizing defensive behavior.

And I love it. Guys like yourself will always 'be w/ us' in Aviation ... and the rest of us just work through it. :)

Strangely ... or ... perhaps not so strangely for those of us who do not have an ax to grind when trying to convince the rest of the populace on this website of their relative worth in this ol' world ... the LSO's and single-seat guys on this thread (and some experienced NFO's, too) basically seem to come down on the same side of the question, with minor and insignificant variations. But that really doesn't surprise me ...

Or mebbe they also just 'missed (your) entire point' ... ???

Your opinion re: how to wave/recover the birds (while tangentially 'interesting') counts less than that of a new LSO who has waved ONE pass from the BLUNT END ... mebbe some day you'll wake up to that simple fact of life. Somehow ... I doubt it. Did you figure as much, once again ... ??? :):confused:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Oh, yeah ... I waved my last pass (5 day, actually) 13 years ago when invited aboard as an LSO/VIP on the 'last CQ' of the A-6 ... they invited me 'cause I was good.

I fear you possibly missed that one ???

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And: you suspect I haven't flown a pass in 20+ years ... ??? WTF do you think I've been doing for the past 30+ years in and out of NAVAIRRES & the airlines ??? You know, those years that I've been flying more hours and days than you'll ever spend in the air ??? --- while you've been trying to get a commission, trying to get a degree, trying to get laid, and hoping to get onto the 'Varsity Team' ??? Do you think I've been guilty -- like some -- of trying convince others that my ECMO-come-lately opinion on landing the Air Wing really matters when we're 3/4 of a mile and someone sez: "CALL THE BALL" ... ???

Just for fun: try landing a 635,000# WHALE on the side of a typhoon on a short, wet runway w/ heavy crosswinds @ GUM w/ 2 very junior crew members contributing nothing to the evolution other than sweating & breathing & hoping they live to see tomorrow. Or try shooting an ADF approach in a WHALE to min's @ PEK w/ no radar coverage. Or try shooting countless 200-1/2 approaches to familiar & unfamiliar airports-anywhere around the world that frequently required more skill than I EVER had to use when flying for UNCLE and the controlled discipline that was USS BOAT.

These examples would be representative of at least one more "pass" than you've flown, 'Brother' ... or ever will. :)

I realize you think you're 'controlling' the EA-6B. I realize you think you're actually 'flying' the bird and the pilot is just along for sport. I realize you think yourself an expert on virtually every NAVAIR subject. I've seen you 'guys' before. It all goes w/ the 'territory' in which you have chosen to reside and the baggage that you bring to your current service to UNCLE.

Suggestion: learn to deal with the fact that you don't know how to land aircraft on the ship -- while the most junior BOAT pilot can; you can't. You'll be much 'happier' when you come to the realization that you are part of a crew and not the central focus of what's going down. Other NFO's decades before you have -- much to their success and contribution to the overall mission and the resultant respect they've earned from the pilot community.

But ... I guess that's not you ... is it?? :)
 

Aids

New Member
None
Whaddup Guys? First time poster. As a veteran of over 500 ball calls, I'll chime in on this one: Besides someone whose fitrep depends on rewriting CV natops, who gives a damn? Leave it to the crewbrief. If a pilot wants to call it, call it. If he'd prefer not to, have the B/N...sorry...WSO call it. Background: I was one of the last B/Ns in VA-75. Are any of my Puncher brothers around?
 

ea6bflyr

Working Class Bum
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Brett & A4s: I'm going to have to side with Brett; he's on the mark. "That's the way we used to do it" is not always the correct answer. "Tradition" is no longer a core value of the US Navy.

a4s said:
Suggestion: learn to deal with the fact that you don't know how to land aircraft on the ship -- while the most junior BOAT pilot can; you can't. You'll be much 'happier' when you come to the realization that you are part of a crew and not the central focus of what's going down. Other NFO's decades before you have -- much to their success and contribution to the overall mission and the resultant respect they've earned from the pilot community.

A4s, all I read is NFO hate.

NFO's know the CV pattern, but we are not STICK MONKEYS; We know that. That has NOTHING to do with who calls the ball. Many an NFO has trained nuggets how to fly around the boat; we've had this discussion before. If it's that important, then why does CATTC make the 3/4 mile calls during case III? Isn't it important that the PILOT hear the LSO's tone of voice?

Bottom line: I do what I can to help the crew. It matters not to me whether I call the ball.

-ea6bflyr ;)
 

AJTranny

Over to the dark side I go...
pilot
None
I have been out of the TACAIR loop for a year or so but I'm just wondering why it was brought up. Was there a miscommunication that jeopardized safety? Personally, when iwas a WSO, I didn't care but we were required to call it per SOP. We never had any problems or long discussions. The pilot said "ball" and I called it. Anyway, was just wondering if this proposal was in reponse to an incident or an attempt to improve procedure.
 

Recovering LSO

Suck Less
pilot
Contributor
It's certainly amusing that the "NFO self-justification" card gets thrown out there, but it's the Pilots who are getting all bent out of shape. In the end, all your collective tirades are moot because WRT the NFO ball call, nothing is going to change.

You must not have been paying attention up in NUW. It was exactly what you say it wasn't. It was a bunch of 1320s who think the airplane can't land without them who felt this was a referendum on them as people. Insecurity is EXACTLY what drove the embarrassing furor. I was involved in conversations with VAQ community leadership as well as with LSO School OIC, AirLant and AirPac Paddles. It was EXACTLY what you're saying it wasn't - if you're still not convinced, or unwilling to believe, I'll be more than happy to PM you names and exact examples of how poorly shaped the VAQ response was.
 

Recovering LSO

Suck Less
pilot
Contributor
In fact, they're just another group of JOs being led around by a senior LT or baby O4 CAG Paddles who are only as good as their collective training and experience.

Go find me another senior LT or "baby O4" who's got the anything close to the same level of visibility and responsibility on a carrier as a CAG LSO. Its not an accident that I have a hotline to the Captain's ear (literally), the Boss calls and asks what and how he should be doing things. CAG wants a visit every night after last recovery. Just another group eh? Not buying it. And that's not because I have some self inflated sense of importance. Those are realities of the billet. I don't know what LSO shit in your sand box, but its unfortunate for you and the JO's who hear and see you carry on this way.

From someone still in the game....
 

Recovering LSO

Suck Less
pilot
Contributor
I have been out of the TACAIR loop for a year or so but I'm just wondering why it was brought up. Was there a miscommunication that jeopardized safety? Personally, when iwas a WSO, I didn't care but we were required to call it per SOP. We never had any problems or long discussions. The pilot said "ball" and I called it. Anyway, was just wondering if this proposal was in reponse to an incident or an attempt to improve procedure.

This was in reaction to what has been called a trend. I personally feel it was more of a reaction to a localized problem within one airwing.
 

Ducky

Formerly SNA2007
pilot
Contributor
NFO's know the CV pattern, but we are not STICK MONKEYS; We know that. That has NOTHING to do with who calls the ball. Many an NFO has trained nuggets how to fly around the boat; we've had this discussion before. If it's that important, then why does CATTC make the 3/4 mile calls during case III? Isn't it important that the PILOT hear the LSO's tone of voice?

Taking a stab in the dark here, but wouldn't that be because in really shitty wx there is a chance that the pilot/crew may not see a ball at 3/4 mile. Additionally if the ball is aquired inside 3/4 mile on case III would it then be called by the pilot.
 

Recovering LSO

Suck Less
pilot
Contributor
If it's that important, then why does CATTC make the 3/4 mile calls during case III? Isn't it important that the PILOT hear the LSO's tone of voice?

Because you're under radar control and CATCC is required to give you updates every so often on the approach - until 3/4 mile when control is turned over the LSO. You're splitting hairs here :)
 

efini_kid

New Member
very entertaining thread...

a small thread-jack:

Could someone explain to me the history on how the NFO/BN began to call the ball? I noticed in a post that its only been happening for 30+ years. So I would assume that before then the pilot would make the call... What was the Navy's reason for making that change?
 

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
Whaddup Guys? .... who gives a damn?...
As an LSO ... I do. ... and it doesn't matter whether it's 20, 30, 40, or 13 years ago ... or 13 days ago ... or 13 years into the future.

As a B/N ... that should be good enough for you.
 

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
A4s, all I read is NFO hate.... It matters not to me whether I call the ball.

-ea6bflyr ;)
If it matters not to you -- then what's your problem w/ the guy flying the ball calling the ball ... ??? Like it should be ??? Like many (most?) LSOs prefer ... ???

As to the 'NFO hate' part of it .... you're a better man than that; I can't believe you said that ... but since you did -- please, do not ever tell me that I 'hate' NFOs.

Or ... go back and read the many post over the years I've put up here DEFENDING the position of NFO and ESPECIALLY that of the B/N ... AND the multi-crew cockpit. I've also maintained that as @ 22K of my 25K flight hours are multi-crew -- all things considered -- I prefer that mode of operation. Unless I'm doing something I don't want any witness to ...

I've DEFENDED NFOs, RANs, RIOs, and BNs when some on this website questioned whether or not the NFO should even get 'credit' for TRAPS. Or wear flight jacket 'TRAP' patches ...

One of my former B/N's is still the 'Top Hook' in the U.S. Navy ... and I 'bought' him several of those traps over the span of a couple of cruises ... he started life as an Aircrewman at the end of WW2 and ended up in the right seat of an A-6 years later. Together, we operated the A-6 like it's designers wanted it to be flown and employed ...

I walked the range at Boardman for 3 days nearly 40 years ago ... looking for the remains of my friend ... he was a B/N I was slated to fly with now that he'd completed the RAG ... we found @ 5# of meat between the two guys ... but we found his (Bill's) wedding ring. I volunteered to be his CACO and spent beaucoup days helping his wife & infant daughter throughout the horrible process. I later pointed her to a series of options that culminated w/ a settlement w/ Grumman which took care of her and their daughter for the rest of their lives. I posted something about that melancholy moment 8-10 months ago as I drove by the Boardman range and remembered that lousy week ...

I've spent several hours this week on the phone and emailing the family of a former B/N of mine ... he died in January and I just found out about it, quite by accident. He was the best -- he was a former CO/XO of VT-86 and should have pinned on a star or two or three ... but knowing him, he was just too nice a guy to get one. I was putting together some 40 year old pix and notes to send to his family ... they wanted the remembrances and it was the least I could do for them ... to honor my former shipmate & squadron mate.

When you train with, fly with, go 'downtown' with, go on liberty with and live with the guy who's sitting on your right shoulder, you're Brothers-in-Arms ... first, second, & forever.

'NFO HATE' ??? Please do not ever tell me I 'hate NFOs' ...
 
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