Who's gonna call the ball? (Them's fightin' words..)

[A4sForever]

My question was not directed at you.....

Yeah ... I knew that, Matt ... I was tryin' to stoke some levity into the thread.

Even CAG Paddles didn't feel like getting into the fight on this one.z

For my opinion, If I can help the pilot focus more on his pass than taking 2 seconds to stop flying, key the mike and talk, then resume flying, then I am going to do exactly that.

But 'fight'??? What 'fight'???

The PILOT flying should call the ball. There is no 'fight' on this subject.

If any 'heavies' or guys that can make a difference are reading this, I hope you take the word of experience -- and the 'word' of those who came before me ...

Matt -- you know I love you & always respect the guys in the back seat & the right seat .... BUT: if you need to "help the pilot focus more on his pass than taking 2 seconds to stop flying"... you need to find another DRIVER to go flyin' with as the guy you've entrusted w/ your life cannot be 'trusted' ...

Since you're not an LSO, I can understand your desire to 'participate' ... BUT: you just don't know how important it CAN BECOME for the LSO to hear and evaluate a pilot who's fucked up that particular night ... flying the ball (successfully) at the ship is an 'art form' ... and as such, it should be participated in by those who are putting the paint on the canvas. It's IMPORTANT for LSO's and pilots to communicate -- especially at night. If you'd done this for many years & tens of thousands of passes (ship & shore) you'd understand.

Believe it.

P.S. ... the pilot doesn't 'stop flying' to call the ball. For further confirmation, let's go talk w/ the single seat guys ... huh???

 

[a_m]

Yeah ... I knew that, Matt ... I was tryin' to stoke some levity into the thread.

But 'fight'??? What 'fight'???

The PILOT flying should call the ball. There is no 'fight' on this subject.

If any 'heavies' or guys that can make a difference are reading this, I hope you take the word of experience -- and the 'word' of those who came before me ...

Matt -- you know I love you & always respect the guys in the back seat & the right seat .... BUT: if you need to "help the pilot focus more on his pass than taking 2 seconds to stop flying"... you need to find another DRIVER to go flyin' with as the guy you've entrusted w/ your life cannot be 'trusted' ...

Since you're not an LSO, I can understand your desire to 'participate' ... BUT: you just don't know how important it CAN BECOME for the LSO to hear and evaluate a pilot who's fucked up that particular night ... flying the ball (successfully) at the ship is an 'art form' ... and as such, it should be participated in by those who are putting the paint on the canvas. It's IMPORTANT for LSO's and pilots to communicate -- especially at night. If you'd done this for many years & tens of thousands of passes (ship & shore) you'd understand.

Believe it.

P.S. ... the pilot doesn't 'stop flying' to call the ball. For further confirmation, let's go talk w/ the single seat guys ... huh???

I listen to the Paddles that are out there. Not you.

 

[A4sForever]

I listen to the Paddles that are our there. Not you.

'Our' there ???

Where do you think the guys that are 'our' (sic) there got their 'stuff'?? From guys who came before them.

I'm sorry to see you're so dismissive of those w/ more experience than you; I'm surprised.

I listen to everyone who knows more or has done more than me .... but that's just me, I guess.

 

[Recovering LSO]

I listen to the Paddles that are out there. Not you.

I'm a CAG paddles "out there" in the fleet and I agree with A4s. There are also some of his points that I don't agree with, but I'm certainly not gonna throw some smug post his way on a topic where he is THE resident expert, as far as airwarriors is concerned. He may have done it a long (sorry A4s) time ago, but the principles don't change.

This is coming from a guy who got his first night traps in the big bad chariot of electronic armageddon that hates CAT I's (at least I was convinced it did). I needed all the help I could get from my right seat instructor. This IS NOT a referendum on the NFO's role in carrier aviation. Unfortunately a lot of people felt that it was - not surprised though.

 

[a_m]

I'm a CAG paddles "out there" in the fleet and I agree with A4s. There are also some of his points that I don't agree with, but I'm certainly not gonna throw some smug post his way on a topic where he is THE resident expert, as far as airwarriors is concerned. He may have done it a long (sorry A4s) time ago, but the principals don't change.

This is coming from a guy who got his first night traps in the big bad chariot of electronic armageddon that hates CAT I's (at least I was convinced it did). I needed all the help I could get from my right seat instructor. This IS NOT a referendum on the NFOs role in carrier aviation. Unfortunately a lot of people felt that it was - not surprised though.

If my post seemed smug, it's because I wasn't asking questions to him. I'm just voicing my opinion. I just think it's funny that the change is already being reworded.

 

[Recovering LSO]

I just think it's funny that the change is already being reworded.

I think its kinda sad.

 

[A4sForever]

I think its kinda sad.

Completely agree ... and I'll go one step further: it's gutless & shows a lack of leadership ... it's drifting.

Anyone can go along, get along ... it takes real 'leaders' to 'lead' ... take a principled stand, defend it, stand by it, be accountable.

... a lack of leadership: it's a HUGE part of the reason I 'got out', as did many of my contemporaries.

 

[Catmando]

Completely agree ... and I'll go one step further: it's gutless & shows a lack of leadership ... it's drifting.

Anyone can go along, get along ... it takes real 'leaders' to 'lead' ... take a principled stand, defend it, stand by it, be accountable.

... a lack of leadership: it's a HUGE part of the reason I 'got out', as did many of my contemporaries.

Couldn't agree more... despite my personal preferences.

 

[rondebmar]

Completely agree ... and I'll go one step further: it's gutless & shows a lack of leadership ... it's drifting.

Anyone can go along, get along ... it takes real 'leaders' to 'lead' ... take a principled stand, defend it, stand by it, be accountable.

... a lack of leadership: it's a HUGE part of the reason I 'got out', as did many of my contemporaries.

+1

 

[Brett327]

Well, I'm coming along late to this thread, but I'm familiar with the issue. In my mind (and to address A4's assertion), and in pragmatic terms, it doesn't matter if anyone thinks the pilot "should" call the ball - that's another debate entirely. The real issue is that in my community (and I suspect in the others), the pilot has never called the ball, so it comes down to introducing something new into the aircrew's habit pattern. Now, if you're going to do that, you had better be able to prove that the advantage gained because of the change outweighs any disadvantage or hazard cause by that change. The old addage applies - if it ain't broke... We've gotten along just fine for the last 30+ years as is, so WTF? The idea that the LSO is going to make some magical psychological evaluation based on a ball call is fucking laughable. Half the time, the LSOs have their heads up their asses anyway, but that's another thread. The break in established habit patterns and distraction from actually flying the ball at the start of the pass is clearly, CLEARLY a bad idea - a mistake. The amount of senior officer pushback from pilots and NFOs tells you all you need to know about this issue. I'm just glad that whomever came up with this idea had the balls to acknowledge that it was a bad idea. It has nothing to do with leadership or taking a stand, but everything to do with having the courage to say, "We made a mistake and we're going to fix it."

You can have another opinion on this issue, but it would be wrong. A4's, that's taking a stand and defending it.

Brett

 

[Catmando]

Well, I'm coming along late to this thread, but I'm familiar with the issue. In my mind (and to address A4's assertion), and in pragmatic terms, it doesn't matter if anyone thinks the pilot "should" call the ball - that's another debate entirely. The real issue is that in my community (and I suspect in the others), the pilot has never called the ball, so it comes down to introducing something new into the aircrew's habit pattern. Now, if you're going to do that, you had better be able to prove that the advantage gained because of the change outweighs any disadvantage or hazard cause by that change. The old addage applies - if it ain't broke... We've gotten along just fine for the last 30+ years as is, so WTF? The idea that the LSO is going to make some magical psychological evaluation based on a ball call is fucking laughable. Half the time, the LSOs have their heads up their asses anyway, but that's another thread. The break in established habit patterns and distraction from actually flying the ball at the start of the pass is clearly, CLEARLY a bad idea - a mistake. The amount of senior officer pushback from pilots and NFOs tells you all you need to know about this issue. I'm just glad that whomever came up with this idea had the balls to acknowledge that it was a bad idea. It has nothing to do with leadership or taking a stand, but everything to do with having the courage to say, "We made a mistake and we're going to fix it."

You can have another opinion on this issue, but it would be wrong. A4's, that's taking a stand and defending it.

Brett

An F'n astute opinion! +1.

 

[A4sForever]

Well, I'm coming along late to this thread, but I'm familiar with the issue. In my mind (and to address A4's assertion), and in pragmatic terms, it doesn't matter if anyone thinks the pilot "should" call the ball - that's another debate entirely. The real issue is that in my community (and I suspect in the others), the pilot has never called the ball, so it comes down to introducing something new into the aircrew's habit pattern. Now, if you're going to do that, you had better be able to prove that the advantage gained because of the change outweighs any disadvantage or hazard cause by that change. The old addage applies - if it ain't broke... We've gotten along just fine for the last 30+ years as is, so WTF? The idea that the LSO is going to make some magical psychological evaluation based on a ball call is fucking laughable. Half the time, the LSOs have their heads up their asses anyway, but that's another thread. The break in established habit patterns and distraction from actually flying the ball at the start of the pass is clearly, CLEARLY a bad idea - a mistake. The amount of senior officer pushback from pilots and NFOs tells you all you need to know about this issue. I'm just glad that whomever came up with this idea had the balls to acknowledge that it was a bad idea. It has nothing to do with leadership or taking a stand, but everything to do with having the courage to say, "We made a mistake and we're going to fix it."

You can have another opinion on this issue, but it would be wrong. A4's, that's taking a stand and defending it.

Brett

Did we miss somethin' ??? Did you go get your 10 & 6 and nobody noticed ??? Are the inmates running the asylum ??? If so ... forget everything that follows .... but if that is not the case:

Not to burst your bubble, ECMO come lately ... but the NFO never (seldom would be more correct) called the ball 'in your community' in the ol' days ... but then again, that was way before guys like you had arrived w/ your vast BOAT experience & before some NFOs needed to feel 'needed' and had to call the ball to feel ... what (???) ... needed, perhaps ???

I guess doin' a good job as an NFO isn't enough these days ???

Sooooooooooooo ... yeah... yeah ... yeah ... I get it: you're 'familiar' w/ 'the issue' just like anyone who participates in carrier aviation ... (as if there's an issue?) ... and in 'pragmatic terms' (to use your vernacular)... I've had more than one NFO that was 'cramped' by the fact that he couldn't fly and was attempting to attain some sort of 'credibility' (ALWAYS in his own mind) ... sometimes by the simple, semi-pathetic expediency of NEEDING to 'call the BALL' ... so I understand your angst.

Insecure NFOs as a subspecies of NFO: I flew w/ some of 'em ... I even knew one who made Skipper, much to the dismay of the rest of the community. And those 'particular' NFOs I got rid of early & often. The only problem was trying to find another pilot who would willingly accept them in his cockpit. In point of fact, that 'future' Skipper was one that I shed. He'd been a pilot in a previous incarnation who DQ'd at the BOAT. He always did carry that big failure-chip around on his back -- he never could get rid of it. Those guys I'm referencing (the insecure types) did not contribute much to the mission as their fragile ego usually got in the way of putting warheads on foreheads. They were better suited to making their 'career' on dry land where they could 'control' events. They got in the way at the BOAT when it came to stick & throttle 'issues'.

"The idea that the LSO is going to make some magical psychological evaluation based on a ball call is fucking laughable..."

You must be drunk tonight. I can't believe someone who's as 'smart' as you can be so ignorant at the same time -- and willingly demonstrate it. Reality check time (in pragmatic terms once again): tell us again how to wave & fly the BALL, would you??? Since you don't have a fuckin' clue how to fly the BALL or what's you're talkin' about, NFO. How would you/could you know what's 'fucking laughable' (again, your words) ... since you can't do it ... you never have ... and you never will ... ??? Repeat after me ... never have; never will .... never have; never will ... :sleep_125:sleep_125:sleep_125:sleep_125

The most junior RAG-STUD-Nugget pilot can do it ... but you can't. Does that bother you?? And he can do it w/out your vast experience as an NFO ... is that what chaps you??? You want confirmation of what I'm saying ??? Let's talk to the single-seat guys ....

And for the record: WTF do you know about the 'communication' that comes w/ experience and familiarity w/ 100 pilots in the AIRWING that can be had from the exchange of a few words ... i.e., "INTRUDER BALL, 5.7" ... ??? How would you know when a guy is puckered and needs 'help' to get aboard safely, just by the sound of his voice ??

Strangely enough ... the worst 'BALL FLYERS' (or NFO's ??) I've ever seen are the guys who've never 'did it' ... or a few bitter NFO's that disqualled while tryin' to 'do it' (and thus became an NFO) and those who were relegated to become senior PLAT LSOs. There was also the occasional back-seaters/right-seaters who were 'average' in their primary jobs and were usually just along for the ride -- they did excell at ridin' & breathin' -- but that's all -- no matter what you'd like to call it. But any NFO who ever gave an LSO any shit during the debrief on any BOAT I ever worked was summarily dismissed from the debrief and referred to the CO/XO or squadron LSO for some in-depth 'schoolin' on how the U.S. NAVY lands aircraft on the BOAT ... and how to STFU during the debrief. Personally, I never had any problem w/ good NFOs -- just the bad ones. Or the egomaniacs ...

But I digress ...

Half the time, the LSOs have their heads up their asses anyway, but that's another thread.

This is where you lose all credibility. Soooooooooooo ... you think the LSO's have their heads up their asses 50 % of the time ... ??? Opening your mouth during a debrief on any BOAT I waved w/ that attitude would have got you cut off at the knees -- and justifiably, too. That's quite a statement for someone who can't 'do it'. The 'older guys' know when someone is full of shit, but your kind of thinking is POISON when it's distributed amongst the junior Aviators & NFOs.

Mebbe instead of just 'telling' us how to do it, you should have spent those 100's of hours at the end of the runway and the blunt end of the ship watching, writing, and waving 1000's of passes to get qualified to tell the rest of us (?) -- spent those long hours when most of the 'other guys', like yourself, had long since gone home??? HEY, I KNOW: mebbe you should consider getting checked out as an LSO tomorrow (it's easy, right??) and then you might have an 'opinion' that actually counts for something when it comes to waving & landing @ USS BOAT ??? Oh, that's right -- you can't, can you ??? At least they could give you a rubber stick & throttle tomorrow -- one that's preferably not connected to anything. But at least you'd feel more like a 'player', yes ???

W/ your opinion (unless I'm missin' somethin' here, and I don't think I am .... ) you should go back to the back of the HELO of P3 from whence you came as you aren't qualified to bloviate re: what it takes to safely & expeditiously land the AIRWING in what's called -- USN CARRIER AVIATION. A HELO or P3 back seat would be safer for you and for those w/ whom you fly ...

Guys who KNOW the score NEVER pick 'fights' over how to fly the BALL, unless they are terminally stupid, inept, insecure, or, in this ridiculous case, have a burr under their saddle re: who should 'call it'. The ONLY people who pick fights w/ the LSOs are 'weak' BOAT pilots, guys who are obsessed w/ landing grades, or those few NFO's who want to beat their chest for 'personal reasons' & who have not a clue how to get a hook onto a wire. It's always the guys who don't know what they're talkin' about who seem to 'have issues', shall we say (issues: to keep w/ your vernacular) with wavin' and flyin' and landin' on the BOAT.

But say, what were we talkin' about, anyway???

Oh yeah, you were telling the Aviators and LSOs on this forum how to fly the BALL. And, of course -- who should call the BALL.

As such, I'm sure you're a GREAT ........... ECMO.

The guy flyin' the BALL calls the BALL.

If you knew how to fly you'd know: it doesn't break one's scan ... it doesn't make one 'stop flying' ... it's not a 'distraction'. It's part of what's called 'flying'. As an Aviator, if you can't do it -- fly and walk and talk and chew gum -- you really should consider selling ladies shoes @ Sears as a new vocation. It's really quite simple. Any BOAT Aviator can (and should) do it. And that's decades of experience talking -- not one LSO/Aviator. But since you asked, it's one w/ @25K hours ...

As you are wont to do -- you like to advise others to 'stay in your own lane' on various subjects. When it comes to LSO/Aviator interchanges that come in the middle of the night in the middle of the GROOVE ... I suggest you take some of your own advice. You know -- regarding those things that you believe to be "fucking laughable"??? Otherwise, I suggest you go get your Aviator Wings & your day/night qual at the BOAT & even take it up a notch and become an LSO -- then you'll have an opinion that might carry some weight.

And then your ECMO can call the ball for you ...

Or ... if you're just bein' facetious ... or you're doing one of your periodic drunk rants ... this has all been very jolly. But it's still a poor attempt at 'NFO humor'.

 

[Ducky]

Let's talk to the single-seat guys ....

You don't even need to talk to the single seat guys. Just go ask the newest stud CQ Qual in the TRACOM how hard it was to make the ball call at the boat. I bet he says it was pretty easy. Most of us that got this far can key the mike, talk, and fly.


Every tailhook pilot had to call the ball to get his wings so the whole habit pattern argument goes to shit after a few FCLP hops. Furthermore, what is the point of the backseater calling the ball if he is just going to come over ICS and say "hey dude do you see the ball?"

 

[A4sForever]

You don't even need to talk to the single seat guys. Just go ask the newest stud CQ Qual in the TRACOM how hard it was to make the ball call at the boat. I bet he says it was pretty easy. Most of us that got this far can key the mike, talk, and fly.

Every tailhook pilot had to call the ball to get his wings so the whole habit pattern argument goes to shit after a few FCLP hops. Furthermore, what is the point of the backseater calling the ball if he is just going to come over ICS and say "hey dude do you see the ball?"

You got it; plus ... to make it really, really 'simple' for those who want to make it 'hard' ... Trophy Wife ® noticed me typing a week or two ago and read some of the comments on this thread over my shoulder ... and after a couple of minutes she said:

"Why would any pilot want to have a guy who's probably got lesser vision call the BALL ... ???"

Out of the mouths of babes ... and in this case, I mean a 'babe'.

The defense rests, in case anyone thinks a defense is needed.

 

[BusyBee604]

Half the time, the LSOs have their heads up their asses anyway, but that's another thread.

Hmmm, that's an interesting assessment, I wonder how your Airwing LSO "Ship/Squadronmates" would respond to that (not too well thought out) statement? I have 700+ single-seat traps (A-4) & near 100 w/ co-pilot (C-1A), & ALWAYS called my own "ball". The call was always made without ANY lessening of my thought processes or aviating skills. If your quote above had any validity, I and many other Naval Aviators might not be around today! I'd be interested to see that "another thread"?

In my opinion, from ball to trap, radio comm. should be two-way only... Pilot to LSO & vice-versa.:icon_roll
BzB