Touchdown(full) Autorotations

[plc67]

I was having a bs session with a former Army Guard pilot the other day and we got on the subject of full autos. When I was in the Pa. Guard, many years ago, we did touchdown autos on our stan rides in the Hueys and OH6s. You had to demonstrate proficiency in straight in,90s, 180s and low level high speed autos. He told me the Army no longer does touchdown autos due to the higher accident rate. I could see that in the OH6, but UH1D/Hs were amazingly easy to autorotate. Screw up an auto in an OH6 and you lost your tailboom. Never fatal but always embarrasing.
Which brings me to the question: Does the Navy/Marine Corps community allow training /checkride full autos or is it still like it was when I flew the E model Hueys in that power recovery autos were the only things you could legally do, even on a NATOPS ride?

 

[MasterBates]

When I was in the HTs, full autos with an IP. Solos, only power recovery.

"Practice full-autorotation landings" is a PROHIBITED manuver as per NATOPS for the SH60B and MH60R. Can't speak for the other variants.

 

[MasterBates]

2 or the last 3 autos that touched down due to poor technique or delayed recovery resulted in FNAEBs here. The odd one was an O4.

 

[greysword]

I hope they at least give the new pilots some chance to practice this maneuver. A friend and former boss that was a Huey pilot in Vietnam told me he used that technique fairly often after getting shot up.

Sure would be good to know as a passenger.

 

[Hawkdriver81]

Has anyone heard of an dual engine Army helicopter having to autorotate recently? The only ones I've heard of are self induced dual engine failures due to pilots being stupid.

Personally I don't see the training benefit of conducting Autorotations to the ground. From a cost perspective I would think repairs and parts to fix an aircraft after all the training dings and dents would quickly surpass the cost of one crashed helicopter due to a dual engine failure. Now if you bring up an autorotation for loss of tail rotor thrust, well I don't know if anyone trains that in an aircraft, or am I mistaken?

 

[bobbybrock]

The army know flys the TH-67 in flight training. My guys coming from Rucker are telling me they still do them to a full touch down. When I flew Hueys back in 94 we had to do a certain amount to move onto the next stage. All were graded, straight in, 180 ans low level. I think they only do straight in these days. I'm not sure with the Huey. The guard unit I'll be going to has a few H-1s left. I'm pretty sure our 95-1 says it is okay to do full touch downs
for intial qual only. We just started doing them in the 60 and have to terminate or power recover.

 

[mts4602]

Just curious, what's an autorotation? Something that you're not allowed to do sounds interesting...

 

[plc67]

In reference to tail rotor thrust, the IP would simulate fixed pedal by blocking the left or right pedal with his foot and you would take the throttle out of governing range and then adjust as necesary to keep relatively straight while doing a run on landing.(Army Guard, never did that in the Corps.)
The dual engines mean no autorotations argument was given when the N model Huey first hit the fleet, but there were some dual flameouts due to an early on design flaw, or so I'm told. The cost effectiveness argument was used with those of us in the single engine E model community. I just found it interesting in the ten years plus I was in the Guard they conducted thousands of touchdown autos and never bent a skid in the Huey. I do believe they dinged an OH6 or two.

 

[MasterBates]

An autorotation is where a helicopter enters and unpowered descent in which the airflow throught the rotor disk keeps the blades turning.

In the 60B, the steady state auto descent rate is approx 2500-3000 fpm at 80 KIAS. You "flare" at the bottom to trade off you rforward KE for some more energy in the rotor, and arrest the descent with the energy built up in the rotor head.

Easy in a high inertia head like a UH1. In a low inertia head like a 60, there is very little room for error.

 

[MasterBates]

Plus in the 60B, there are some EPs where you have to shut the engines down even though they are running fine.

Loss of TR Drive requires entering an auto to aviod spinning out of control, and you have to cut the engines or you will spin when you pull power at the end of the fare to slow your descent.

 

[KnightNArmor]

Just finished the HT's about 6 months ago... now flying 46s. We practice auto's in the 46 all the time during familirization flights. We're dual engine, and you never quite know when something is going to cause you to have to do one.
As far as in the HT's go.... the TH-57 is single engine. So, it's only fitting that we learn to do them EXTREMELY well in case something happens..

And as a point of reference... studs in the HT's don't even get to do power recoveries on solo's anymore.

 

[Oh-58Ddriver]

On the Army side, currently everyone does touchdown autos (60 minimum) in primary, then the majority of pilots never see them again once they get into dual-engine helicopters (60s, 47s, and 64s). But those few, those chosen few that get to fly the 58D go down the opposite route...we spent another 6 weeks perfecting 180 autos, low level high airspeed, and low level low airspeed autos, and of course hovering autos and SEFs and a hover. That was at the school house - out here in the real Army we do hovering autos and SEFs at a hover, but all autos from altitude are required to terminate with power.

I think its a must to practice it, especially since we have a low inertia rotor system. Rotor speed fluctuates very, very quickly...

 

[phrogpilot73]

Just finished the HT's about 6 months ago... now flying 46s. We practice auto's in the 46 all the time during familirization flights. We're dual engine, and you never quite know when something is going to cause you to have to do one.
As far as in the HT's go.... the TH-57 is single engine. So, it's only fitting that we learn to do them EXTREMELY well in case something happens..

And as a point of reference... studs in the HT's don't even get to do power recoveries on solo's anymore.

Just a note - in a Phrog you don't pull back any Engine Condition Levers, and you don't do full autos. Always power recovery. I almost did a full auto once, damn near overtorqued pulling the collective to my armpit to recover my copilots horrible job...

 

[KnightNArmor]

Yeah, if I gave you the impression that we were doing fulls...sorry...
We only do power recoveries, and the recovery altitude is 25ft. here in the FRS.

 

[BigIron]

Only power recoveries in 53 land. 50' and 50kts on recovery for practice autos. Rate of descent depends on airspeed, but approx 3000-4000 fpm.