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The Tomcat Legacy; 35+ years from Fleet Air Defender to Recce to Precision Strike

Catmando

Keep your knots up.
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
This thread reignites an old memory, many decades hence, but still too fresh for me.

I think it's relevant and enlightening so here it is, FWIW:

I was given a "cleared to arm, cleared to fire" by our controlling Red Crown, (USS Truxton or maybe Long Beach, I believe) on two enemy MiGs to our west, about 20 – 30 miles. My RO locked up one of them. Flipping switches quickly, armed and ready, I watched the radar as the enemy quickly came into Sparrow range, very fast, low and head-on.

Armed and ready, I only hesitated firing my AIM-7 so as to sweeten the shot, hoping for a better Pk.

Watching the enemy now entering the heart of the envelope on the scope – and with visions of a Silver Star with my first MiG kill in my head - I (fortunately) looked up to see if I could get a visual.

What I saw – to my astonishment – a speck with black smoke!
I knew Migs didn't smoke…. F-4s did. So thank God, I held my fire!!!

What I did not know was our sister squadron, on separate frequencies and controllers had been vectored 180 degrees out on the very same Migs as we had.

But meanwhile, our Migs had slipped out low, on the deck, undetected to the south. But we still had been both vectored onto the same Migs, formerly in-between us.

As it turned out our section had been (but their section hadn't been) cleared to fire BVR upon what later turned out to be, not MiGs, but our unknown - didn't ever know they were there - sister squadron's F-4s working on their separate AIC control and UHF frequency, and on an aggressive 180 opposite vector on same MiGs as us.

Although my friends in the brand-x F-4 casually brushed it off in the debrief and still later over San Magoo's in the 'Po, I still shudder at how close I came to accidentally bagging them in a friendly fire incident.

It's still something I often think about after all these many years, even though it all worked out OK. Thus, I cannot imagine how difficult it would be for ALCON if I had actually fired on them…. With almost certain disastrous results.
 

Single Seat

Average member
pilot
None
Joe,
I guess my point (or question) is was the Vincennes really a "Firebreak" incident? It seems we've come to regard Firebreaks as a training saftey mitigation tool when dealing with ordnance, i.e. no trigger squeezes with loaded guns, no BFM with forward firing ordnance, etc.
 

HeyJoe

Fly Navy! ...or USMC
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Joe,
I guess my point (or question) is was the Vincennes really a "Firebreak" incident? It seems we've come to regard Firebreaks as a training saftey mitigation tool when dealing with ordnance, i.e. no trigger squeezes with loaded guns, no BFM with forward firing ordnance, etc.

You're confusing the FIREBREAK "study" that delved into all Fratricide/incidents where ordnance was released in error. There are numerous "FIREBREAK" procedures now in place that you refer to. To answer your question, Admiral Kelso (CNO) had the team look at all incidents in great detail so asking if it's really a "FIREBREAK" incident? There are several PhDs at NPS who do an interactive class on group reactions under stress. If you want to nitpick it, I can hook you upo with the expert there as we meet from time to time and discuss the matter when incidents crop up like the USAF F-15s that bagged the Army helo over Northern Iraq while under AWACS control. As to Vncennes incident, my answer is it's a moot point as intent was to eliminate any release of weapons unless it was a bonafide use of lethal force.
 

HackerF15E

Retired Strike Pig Driver
None
I'm suprised nobody is bagging on the Army in this situation. Didn't our Army bretheren bag a Tornado during the beginning of OIF? Didn't they go blue on blue on someone else during the first Gulf War?

A Patriot also shot down an F-18 in the first week of April '03.
 

HackerF15E

Retired Strike Pig Driver
None
the USAF F-15s that bagged the Army helo over Northern Iraq while under AWACS control.

That's a fascinating case...one that we in the F-15 world spend a lot of time studying. There are so many different facets to it.

Although the blame rests squarely where the pink thumb pushed the red button inside the F-15C, there are lessons to be learned at nearly every level.
 

Harrier Dude

Living the dream
An RAF Tornado too. Didn't inspire confidence in the Patriot crews. :eek:

Honestly, I was more worried about them shooting me down than the Iraqis after about day 2 of the war.

The Iraqis couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with a banjo.

The patriots just don't miss. That's great as long as they know what they're shooting at.
 

stalk

Lobster's Pop
pilot
Wasn't the story behind one of these incidents that the Patriot crew thought there was an incoming missile/strike on their position, set the Patriot on auto and took shelter? Or is that just urban legend?
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Wasn't the story behind one of these incidents that the Patriot crew thought there was an incoming missile/strike on their position, set the Patriot on auto and took shelter? Or is that just urban legend?

I heard a version when we were in-briefed, that the battery was on auto for at least one of the shootdowns. I did not hear the running for shelter bit. As for the real story, I never saw an after-action report on it. I would really liked to have now that I think about it, to learn if there was anything the crews could have done to prevent it/mistakes they may have made or if the Patriot crew was at fault. You know, learn from our mistakes. Anyone know if something is out there?
 

Xtndr50boom

Voted 8.9 average on the Hot-or-Not scale
I heard a version when we were in-briefed, that the battery was on auto for at least one of the shootdowns. I did not hear the running for shelter bit. As for the real story, I never saw an after-action report on it. I would really liked to have now that I think about it, to learn if there was anything the crews could have done to prevent it/mistakes they may have made or if the Patriot crew was at fault. You know, learn from our mistakes. Anyone know if something is out there?

Don't know about the F-18, but the tornado's mode 4 was inop when they popped up from a low level. The patriot crew followed their ROEs, fired, and the rest is history
 

Harrier Dude

Living the dream
Don't know about the F-18, but the tornado's mode 4 was inop when they popped up from a low level. The patriot crew followed their ROEs, fired, and the rest is history

There's quite a bit more to it than that, but I think that we'd better drop this whole line of conversation.
 

HeyJoe

Fly Navy! ...or USMC
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
That's a fascinating case...one that we in the F-15 world spend a lot of time studying. There are so many different facets to it.

Although the blame rests squarely where the pink thumb pushed the red button inside the F-15C, there are lessons to be learned at nearly every level.

Classic example of the phenomena of seeing what you want to see: F-15s did an overhead VID and thought they were looking at Hinds instead of Blackhawks. One of incident pilots was the CC so no excuse for misidentification.

That said, I've seen aircrews make amazing misidentifications from calling an AN-12 a C-130 to aircraft entering break over a Brit CV thinking it was their "mother".
 
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