Point Paper/Letter Re: Aviation Greens.

[Brett327]

non-bag days.

What's that?

Brett

 

[Pags]

Late to the AWG show here...been a busy week. Anyways, as I alluded to in the other thread, I'm a big fan and need to get myself a pair and wear them while I still can. While I was in Bahrain we tried to get some of the local tailors to make them, but no joy. I think they're a traditional aviation uniform and it's sad that they're not as well recognized as a symbol of Naval Aviation as the leather jacket or the brown shoes. I love the idea of keeping them as an "optional" uniform (it's not like shoes wear it anyways, so who gives a damn?). A little sense of individuality between the rest of the Navy is a great tradition of Naval Aviation, be it a unique uniform (AWG, flight suits) or something little like the oft-debated cover dip. These are the things that distinguish us as aviation professionals and not just another naval officer. And while big navy is always going to want us to toe the line, sometimes we just have to set ourselves apart. The gentlemen seen here knew it.

 

[phrogpilot73]

...something little like the oft-debated cover dip.

Uhh... Cover Dip? I know what it is, but who does it - you guys or the shoes?

 

[Pags]

Uhh... Cover Dip? I know what it is, but who does it - you guys or the shoes?

The good guys.

 

[KBayDog]

The good guys.

That's a loaded statement, considering Phrogpilot is married to a Shoe.

 

[MasterBates]

Here is an updated letter:

Keeping The AWGs

Without question the return of Service Dress Khaki has been met with thunderous applause from many officers and has even begun to make waves among the ranks of Midshipmen and Officer Candidates. The return of Service Dress Khaki will display a dedication to the strong sense of tradition held by the Naval Service. It is this sense of tradition which has prompted the authoring of this letter. However wonderful it is that Service Dress Khaki has been re-introduced, the retirement of another historic uniform has gone almost unnoticed. This uniform dates back to the beginning of Naval Aviation and is unfortunately slated for retirement with the introduction of the new Navy Working Uniform. I am referring of course to Aviation Working Greens.

The Aviation community has three historic and traditional uniform articles, the leather flight jacket, brown shoes, and Aviation Working Greens. While the leather flight jacket was introduced during the 1930’s, Aviation Working Greens date back to 1917 six years after the inception of Naval Aviation and just four years after the introduction of the coveted brown shoes. It is only appropriate to mention the wearing of brown shoes here as it was not long ago that brown shoes were sent to the gallows, only to be resurrected nine years later. There is an opportunity here to save this historic and traditional uniform without retracing the steps of those who fought so hard to bring back brown shoes.
The fate of Aviation Working Greens may matter little to those who are not a part of the Aviation Community, quite simply it should if not for anything but tradition. Of all the branches of the armed services the Naval Service by far has strongest sense of tradition. The US Naval Service can trace some of its traditions back as far as 350 years, due to the fact that many of our traditions come from the Royal Navy and the days of fighting sail.

Additionally there is a significant resurgence of interest in this historic uniform amongst the Aviation community and although Aviation Working Green is, today, rarely used it should not be phased out, rather should remain an optional uniform. Possible reasons wear of the uniform include but are not limited to Squadron Duty Officer, or situations which require a more formal uniform than the Navy Working Uniform but are still conducive to grease and oil stains.
The Naval Service has a rich history, one that any Sailor can be proud of. As we celebrate our Naval Heritage with the re-introduction of Service Dress Khakis in our modern Sea Bag, Aviation Working Greens should remain proudly remain a part of the Aviator’s Sea Bag.

 

[Steeljaw Scribe]

Why they are/were called 'Working...'

I think I already said this, but I have never understood why the AWGs are considered a "working" uniform. Can you ever imagine someone dropping $500 on them and then mucking around in dirt and grease? Don't think so. They're more appropriate as a SERVICE uniform, perhaps as an alternative to service khaki. But, since they are labelled as a "working" uniform, some bean counter lumped them in with SWOveralls to get replaced.

They were/are called "working" because that was the original uniform you flew in (crew of the NC-4 shown below):

Note the difference between the JG's jacket (no Capt. Kangaroo pockets) and the others? There's always 10%...

L to R: Chief Rhoades, Lieutenant Breese, Lieutenant Junior Grade Hinton, Lieutenant Stone, Lieutenant Commander Read, Missing Ensign Rodd​

 

[Mumbles]

That's it Bates!! I want to re-instate the pantiloones privelage henceforth.

 

[voodooqueen]

AWGs

You're on the right track with your reasons, but consider your audience and what their agenda might be. In this case it's to save money. You need to refute the money argument which is a reasonable one. Suggest that with AWGs as an alternate uniform, individuals would be willing to pay more out of pocket.

Play on your reader's needs and emotions. One need is to increase moral and another would be recruitment, yet another would be the need to boost the confidence of the public. (Anyone who can actually approve uniforms will be an older person.) Remind the reader that the AWGs are a symbol of the ethics and extraordinary sacrifices of those who fought in earlier wars. Such individuals were portrayed in films such as 12 O'Clock High with Gregory Peck and the Flying Tigers with John Wayne; the uniform was a part of the mystique of those larger than life characters. A tall, handsome guy looks even better in a cool jacket--and a less handsome guy can seem handsome. (You really should see these films if you haven't.) The aviators who inspired these characters were role models for decades and when these films came out, no doubt morale increased as did recruitment. (Since the film industry didn't support Viet Nam we don't really have any films from that era to honor those heros.)

Is is no accident that politicians such as George H. Bush had their photos taken in AWGs--the uniform inspires the ideal of the honorable, self-sacrificing hero. In today's world of free-floating trepidation and mistrust, a nostalgic uniform might retrieve the idea that as long as there are guys who look like that, the people need not fear.

 

[MasterBates]

Updated letter with new ideas incorporated.

Keeping The AWGs

Without question the return of Service Dress Khaki has been met with thunderous applause from many officers and has even begun to make waves among the ranks of Midshipmen and Officer Candidates. The return of Service Dress Khaki will display a dedication to the strong sense of tradition held by the Naval Service. It is this sense of tradition which has prompted the authoring of this letter. However wonderful it is that Service Dress Khaki has been re-introduced, the retirement of another historic uniform has gone almost unnoticed. This uniform dates back to the beginning of Naval Aviation and is unfortunately slated for retirement with the introduction of the new Navy Working Uniform. I am referring of course to Aviation Working Greens.

The Aviation community has three historic and traditional uniform articles, the leather flight jacket, brown shoes, and Aviation Working Greens. While the leather flight jacket was introduced during the 1930’s, Aviation Working Greens date back to 1917 six years after the inception of Naval Aviation and just four years after the introduction of the coveted brown shoes. It is only appropriate to mention the wearing of brown shoes here as it was not long ago that brown shoes were sent to the gallows, only to be resurrected nine years later. There is an opportunity here to save this historic and traditional uniform without retracing the steps of those who fought so hard to bring back brown shoes.

The fate of Aviation Working Greens may matter little to those who are not a part of the Aviation Community, quite simply it should if not for anything but tradition. Of all the branches of the armed services the Naval Service by far has strongest sense of tradition. The US Naval Service can trace some of its traditions back as far as 350 years, due to the fact that many of our traditions come from the Royal Navy and the days of fighting sail.

Additionally there is a significant resurgence of interest in this historic uniform amongst the Aviation community and although Aviation Working Green is, today, rarely used it should not be phased out, rather should remain an optional uniform. Possible reasons wear of the uniform include but are not limited to Squadron Duty Officer, or situations which require a more formal uniform than the Navy Working Uniform but are still conducive to possible grease and oil stains.

While the current round of uniform regulation revisions has used simplifying and reducing the cost of the Sea Bag for Sailors, the current de facto policy for the Aviation Working Green uniform is that those who choose to buy it and wear it do so. Those that do not desire to wear Aviation Working Greens have never been required to buy them in recent history. I believe that keeping them as an alternate uniform to be worn when Service Dress Khaki, Service Khaki, or Service Dress Blue would otherwise be worn is a fine way to uphold Naval traditions while keeping the cost of the Sea Bag reasonable. An authorized variant of the uniform, wearing the Leather Flight Jacket in place of the Aviation Working Green coat can be worn. The only additional items that are needed are the Aviation Working Green trousers, and either a green Garrison Cap or a Green Combination Cover. The rest of the components are part of other common uniforms.

The Naval Service has a rich history, one that any Sailor can be proud of. The proud history of this uniform would be a shame to lose. Think back to all those who have come before us in Naval Aviation. Presidents, Medal of Honor recipients, numerous other combat veterans, they all wore this uniform with pride and honor. It would be a tragedy to end that tradition. As we celebrate our Naval Heritage with the re-introduction of Service Dress Khakis in our modern Sea Bag, Aviation Working Greens should remain proudly remain a part of the Aviator’s Sea Bag.

 

[HH-60H]

I haven't had much to contribute to this effort, but it seems like a great idea. I hope that it works.

 

[MasterBates]

If anyone has ideas, re-writes, formatting suggestions, feel free to PM me with them. When we get to a point where it looks workable, professional, and concise, I will head up submitting it, unless someone of higher rank would like to "lead the charge".

If there are any LCDR, CDR, CAPT, or ADM that would like to help, or put your name behind this to give it more strength than just a couple JOs working with a web forum, feel free to PM me and take the lead.

I'm doing my damndest to fly a stable platform, but I only have a small clue how to get to the target.

 

[nittany03]

Trimmed out the fat and edited for grammar. Watch for run-on sentences and comma splices. My thoughts are in italics. I think if this is to be effective, it has to follow the money. The NEX still has to spend money to stock or order greens for people; how much is this? How much strain is there on the supply system compared to coveralls, utilities, and other working uniforms? How much real support in the Aviation community is there for this, or is it a tempest in a teapot? For those more experienced in Naval writing, how long is a point paper and how much detail is one expected to get into?

The return of Service Dress Khaki has been met with applause from many officers, and has made waves among the ranks of Midshipmen and Officer Candidates [Has it, or is this hyperbole?]. It displays a dedication to the strong sense of tradition held by the Naval Service. That sense of tradition has prompted this letter. Though it is wonderful that Service Dress Khaki has been re-introduced, the retirement of another historic uniform is going almost unnoticed. This uniform dates back to the beginnings of Naval Aviation. It is unfortunately slated for retirement with the introduction of the new Navy Working Uniform. It is Aviation Working Green.

The Aviation community has three historic and traditional uniform articles: the leather flight jacket, brown shoes, and Aviation Working Greens. While the leather flight jacket was introduced during the 1930s, Aviation Working Greens date back to 1917. This is six years after the inception of Naval Aviation, and just four years after the introduction of the coveted brown shoes. ['Coveted' might be a little melodramatic. Not sure.] It is appropriate to mention the wearing of brown shoes here as, not long ago, they were sent to the gallows, only to be resurrected nine years later. This is an opportunity to save this historic and traditional uniform without retracing the steps of those who fought so hard to bring back brown shoes. [What do you mean by 'retracing the steps?' This sentence seems vague.]

The fate of Aviation Working Greens may matter little to those who are not a part of the Aviation Community. However, of all the branches of the armed services, the Naval Service by far has the strongest sense of tradition. The US Naval Service can trace some of its traditions back centuries, as many of our traditions come from the Royal Navy and the days of fighting sail. [This paragraph seems loosely connected to the whole argument. You may not care about our uniform, but we have cool traditions? How do the other traditions tie into the Greens?]

There is a significant resurgence of interest in this historic uniform amongst the Aviation community [A resurgence, maybe, but is it 'significant?']. Although Aviation Working Green is rarely used today, it should not be phased out. Rather, it should remain an optional uniform. Possible uses of the uniform include, but are not limited to: Squadron Duty Officer and situations requiring a more formal uniform than the NWU but still conducive to possible grease and oil stains. [I think you should play up the dressier uses of the uniform. Also, consider pushing for it to be an off-base uniform. I'm having a hard time envisioning what situations you're talking about. I also had a devil of a time figuring out how to parse this sentence; I'm still not sure the grammar is right.]

While the current round of uniform regulation revisions has simplified and reduced the cost of the seabag for Sailors, the de facto policy for the Aviation Working Green uniform is that those who choose to wear it buy it with their own money. Those that do not desire to wear Aviation Working Greens have never been required to buy them in recent history. Keeping them as an alternate uniform to be worn when Service Dress Khaki, Service Khaki, or Service Dress Blue would otherwise be worn is a fine way to uphold Naval traditions while keeping the cost of the seabag reasonable. An variant of the uniform, wearing the leather flight jacket in place of the green coat, can also be used. The only additional items that are needed are the Aviation Working Green trousers, and either a green garrison cap or a green combination cover. The rest of the components are part of other common uniforms. [This paragraph hits the hardest. It's all about the money, and how eliminating AWG has a low return. There should be evidence. How much does it cost the NEX to supply a certain kind of uniform?]

The Naval Service has a rich history, one that any Sailor can be proud of. The proud history of this uniform would be a shame to lose. Think back to all who have come before us in Naval Aviation: Presidents, Medal of Honor recipients, and numerous other combat veterans. They all wore this uniform with pride and honor. It would be tragic to end that tradition. As we celebrate our Naval Heritage with the re-introduction of Service Dress Khakis in our modern seabag, Aviation Working Greens should remain proudly remain a part of the Aviator’s seabag.

Yeesh. That probably looks like it got worked over by a high school English teacher with a red pen, but oh well.

 

[MasterBates]

Not sure how much it costs the NEX to stock them.. They are not stocked normally. Trousers and Jacket are special order. Trousers are not priced unreasonably, but with what the jacket costs, I doubt they are losing money.

 

[HH-60H]

Not sure how much it costs the NEX to stock them.. They are not stocked normally. Trousers and Jacket are special order. Trousers are not priced unreasonably, but with what the jacket costs, I doubt they are losing money.

To mitigate any NEX costs, couldn't we suggest that they be only made available by independant uniform suppliers (e.g. Abbot's, Johnson's, etc.)?