phrogpilot73
Well-Known Member
What if you don't get enough hours for the airlines?!?
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officer retention
- Thread starter Fist Mollusk
- Start date
gaijin6423
Ask me about ninjas!
I just went through said survey, and I have to say that I've seen better. The questions were poorly phrased, and the answers didn't exactly match with them in several cases.
Speaking as someone who is on the fence (already extended once to go on an upcoming deployment) and considering leaving, I think there are quite a few reasons why junior officers in the Marine Corps are getting out. Honestly, this deployment will pretty much make up my mind for me, but I'd have to say the thing that's gotten me to this point is being nickel & dimed to death with exercises, etc. and having no real sense of accomplishment. I've sat back in the RBE while my squadron has deployed and returned two 7 month rotations to Iraq, because I was earmarked to take out a MEU DET. (In reality, it's not such a bad deal, because I've got a lot of freedom to train and employ my guys how I want to.) At the same time, I've both missed out on going to do operational shit, and had to deal with the non-deployable people left to man the RBE. Oftentimes these individuals, as I'm sure many here can attest to, are a whole demoralizing society unto themselves, and after dealing with multiple felonies by multiple individuals, it begins to wear.
I must be the only dumbass who's complaining about not enough deployments...
Speaking as someone who is on the fence (already extended once to go on an upcoming deployment) and considering leaving, I think there are quite a few reasons why junior officers in the Marine Corps are getting out. Honestly, this deployment will pretty much make up my mind for me, but I'd have to say the thing that's gotten me to this point is being nickel & dimed to death with exercises, etc. and having no real sense of accomplishment. I've sat back in the RBE while my squadron has deployed and returned two 7 month rotations to Iraq, because I was earmarked to take out a MEU DET. (In reality, it's not such a bad deal, because I've got a lot of freedom to train and employ my guys how I want to.) At the same time, I've both missed out on going to do operational shit, and had to deal with the non-deployable people left to man the RBE. Oftentimes these individuals, as I'm sure many here can attest to, are a whole demoralizing society unto themselves, and after dealing with multiple felonies by multiple individuals, it begins to wear.
I must be the only dumbass who's complaining about not enough deployments...
Unfortunately not...
MasterBates
Well-Known Member
HSL guys are not getting a lot of 2nd cruises as well. With the hit/miss of det manning, and the unwillingness/feasability of getting people to a boat underway, has led to a lot of guys doing 1 cruise, while others do 3.
This part stumps me. Even when carriers (and their attendant Battle Groups) did blue water ops as SOP, they still managed to get dudes aboard/ashore for myriad reasons. I wonder what happened to bring on this mentality.
survey results in 2003/4
I thought I saw a survey from the Navy survey people released a couple years ago.. There was a dude (pilot) in my squadron who was thinking about getting out to go to B school, and I was also looking at doing some other training as well, as we spent an hour or so looking at the results. He got out to go to B school, and I got selected for DUINS (duty under instruction) I'll see if I can find it.
I thought I saw a survey from the Navy survey people released a couple years ago.. There was a dude (pilot) in my squadron who was thinking about getting out to go to B school, and I was also looking at doing some other training as well, as we spent an hour or so looking at the results. He got out to go to B school, and I got selected for DUINS (duty under instruction) I'll see if I can find it.
MasterBates
Well-Known Member
No clue.. For planned rotations, meeting the boat in port is not that much of a red-ass. Hell, anywhere in the Gulf is just a helo or COD ride away from Bahrain.
For guys in "Airwing squadrons" that depoly together, joining the cruise while its underway or going home is not a big deal. For HSL, it was a huge red-ass. Granted, taking 1/6 the pilots away does not help, but then again, if someone is med-down, you lose them as well.
Oh well, not an HSL guy anymore. Maybe with the HSM scheme coming online, it will be better.
I never knew an officer that got out of the Navy while I was enlisted. I pretty much thought all officers were lifers. I only saw a few senior officers get relieved. Now that I am an officer I've seen 3 get out, and all I hear is guys/girls talking about how they are probably going to get out of the service after their commitment. I don't know how or why, but I think news of officers getting out is a lot less advertised in a command versus an enlisted getting out.
corvairdroptop
Registered User
I'm not attempting to compare the two communities; I mean to say that, regardless of where an officer is in the Navy, leaving will become an even more attractive option in fluid job markets, which may be the long-term trend for a number of reasons.
The argument that the aviation commitment puts you "half-way there" will probably be less relevant in the future. There are a lot of things that we can't predict or change about either the military or the economy (and concerning our community, the airlines). Future manpower requirements are also in play. My example of something we can change was the retirement vesting system, which is not conducive to retaining highly qualified young people. As it is, the commitment length is working against us in terms of acquiring people (necessary as it may be).
phrogpilot73
Well-Known Member
Agree wholeheartedly with one caveat - don't lie to them. I was within 6 months of my terminal leave date and one of the young enlisted guys (my RTO) asked me where I was heading after the Battalion. I told him that I was getting out, and he asked why. I explained that my wife was active duty, and that it would have been damn near impossible to co-locate with two careers in two separate services, and that it was a long discussion, and a hard decision to make. If you're bitter - be professional and gloss over it. Up until my last day, I was still selling retention to the young guys. My RTO is currently in BOOST, so I guess I did good with that sales pitch...RetreadRand said:
phrogpilot73
Well-Known Member
I get 10% of his flight pay and bonusWere you working for commission? *rimshot*
3P4Life
Local JOPA Union Rep
Why do officers choose to leave the Navy? I've never had a humble opinion, because anybody who knows me knows that I am not humble, but I'll give it a try just this once.
I think there are two big reasons, and they center on the lifestyle and changing life goals and desires. Take a 20 year career template and place it over the course of a "typical" officers life/time span. (I define typical as high school to college to commission to flight school. There are tons of variations, but that's the general flow.)
Ages 18-23: No family. Career is focused on graduation and getting to flight school. Idealistic. Influenced by peer pressure and by other newly minted officers. Little exposure if any to realities of fleet life.
Ages 23-26: Fiancé or Married, no children or 1 baby. Career is focused on surviving flight school and getting to fleet squadron. Idealistic, often says, "I can't wait to get to the fleet." Influenced by peers, and flight instructors who love what they do. Exposure to Navy/Marine Corps is positive. Life has not changed all the much from college yet.
Ages 26-30: Married 2 children. Career is focused on upgrading, qualifications, deployment workups. No longer idealistic. Slapped around a bit. Realize that squadron is full of people just like you trying to stay in the cockpit for next tour. Fights over flight time or lack of it. Squadron politics take root toward end of first tour. Fleet life is cut throat, difficult, with long deployments. Signs of marital stress. Kids start crying when you pull out your overnight bag. First shadow of doubt creeps into your mind, “Is this all there is? Is this what the rest of my life's going to be like? Is there more?” Still trying to figure out how you are going to change the world.
Ages 30-34: Married with 5 kids because you breed like rabbits after deployments and LOVE the Navy, wife is comfy too with your big paycheck stops work and gets a bit of booty/belly, and actually wears the Mu Mu’s you get her on your trips to Hawaii. Waits at home for you with pie and pot roast and a roll in the hay with your flight suit half on……
OR
Divorced with 2 children living in apartment with half your pay going back to wife's hometown in Sandusky, Ohio......
OR
Still married, but with one very annoyed wife who would also like to start a career, build a home and stop all this chasing of the brass ring and the next big assignment. Wife hates your deployment schedule but realizes it's what needs to be done at the moment. Career: Facing first out of cockpit tour, possibly on a boat, or IA to Iraq. Not sure if you'll ever be back to the cockpit. Watch young guys move in behind and eat up all the flight time. You work in an obscure shop in maintenance. You are not the ANI/WTI with all the qualifications so you don’t get the hours that the A$$ clowns in the Ops flying club do. You wish you were them. Idealism has changed to either acceptance of reality ( fat happy wife and realization you will never change the world or that the Navy/Marine Corps is no different than any other job) or you rage inside at all the injustices of the Navy/Marine Corps. You are faced with your 10 year mark decision. Do you stay or do you go?
It boils down to this. The military is NOT a job, it's a lifestyle, the same way being an airline pilot or a corporate executive is not a job it's a lifestyle. After 10 years you either like the lifestyle and have come to grips with all it's oddities and accept your place in life, or you don't. If you don't, then you get out. It's not the money, the benefits, the days of vacation; it's the match of the person to the organization.
As for me, I've opted for a new lifestyle. Will I miss this one? Parts of it, you bet! As you grow up so do your priorities. For me it was when my son asked me to work at Burger King so I wouldn't have to go away anymore in my airplane and we could eat hamburgers together everyday for dinner. You just don't think about that sort of thing when you are 24 in the orgasm and excitement of your first fleet tour blasting into jungle strips in the Bataan islands blowing over cattle and kids on bicycles with your prop wash.
I think there are two big reasons, and they center on the lifestyle and changing life goals and desires. Take a 20 year career template and place it over the course of a "typical" officers life/time span. (I define typical as high school to college to commission to flight school. There are tons of variations, but that's the general flow.)
Ages 18-23: No family. Career is focused on graduation and getting to flight school. Idealistic. Influenced by peer pressure and by other newly minted officers. Little exposure if any to realities of fleet life.
Ages 23-26: Fiancé or Married, no children or 1 baby. Career is focused on surviving flight school and getting to fleet squadron. Idealistic, often says, "I can't wait to get to the fleet." Influenced by peers, and flight instructors who love what they do. Exposure to Navy/Marine Corps is positive. Life has not changed all the much from college yet.
Ages 26-30: Married 2 children. Career is focused on upgrading, qualifications, deployment workups. No longer idealistic. Slapped around a bit. Realize that squadron is full of people just like you trying to stay in the cockpit for next tour. Fights over flight time or lack of it. Squadron politics take root toward end of first tour. Fleet life is cut throat, difficult, with long deployments. Signs of marital stress. Kids start crying when you pull out your overnight bag. First shadow of doubt creeps into your mind, “Is this all there is? Is this what the rest of my life's going to be like? Is there more?” Still trying to figure out how you are going to change the world.
Ages 30-34: Married with 5 kids because you breed like rabbits after deployments and LOVE the Navy, wife is comfy too with your big paycheck stops work and gets a bit of booty/belly, and actually wears the Mu Mu’s you get her on your trips to Hawaii. Waits at home for you with pie and pot roast and a roll in the hay with your flight suit half on……
OR
Divorced with 2 children living in apartment with half your pay going back to wife's hometown in Sandusky, Ohio......
OR
Still married, but with one very annoyed wife who would also like to start a career, build a home and stop all this chasing of the brass ring and the next big assignment. Wife hates your deployment schedule but realizes it's what needs to be done at the moment. Career: Facing first out of cockpit tour, possibly on a boat, or IA to Iraq. Not sure if you'll ever be back to the cockpit. Watch young guys move in behind and eat up all the flight time. You work in an obscure shop in maintenance. You are not the ANI/WTI with all the qualifications so you don’t get the hours that the A$$ clowns in the Ops flying club do. You wish you were them. Idealism has changed to either acceptance of reality ( fat happy wife and realization you will never change the world or that the Navy/Marine Corps is no different than any other job) or you rage inside at all the injustices of the Navy/Marine Corps. You are faced with your 10 year mark decision. Do you stay or do you go?
It boils down to this. The military is NOT a job, it's a lifestyle, the same way being an airline pilot or a corporate executive is not a job it's a lifestyle. After 10 years you either like the lifestyle and have come to grips with all it's oddities and accept your place in life, or you don't. If you don't, then you get out. It's not the money, the benefits, the days of vacation; it's the match of the person to the organization.
As for me, I've opted for a new lifestyle. Will I miss this one? Parts of it, you bet! As you grow up so do your priorities. For me it was when my son asked me to work at Burger King so I wouldn't have to go away anymore in my airplane and we could eat hamburgers together everyday for dinner. You just don't think about that sort of thing when you are 24 in the orgasm and excitement of your first fleet tour blasting into jungle strips in the Bataan islands blowing over cattle and kids on bicycles with your prop wash.
phrogpilot73
Well-Known Member
I'd say that you have hit the nail squarely on the head. Considering your past posts on this forum, it was surprisingly not bitter. You did forget the guys that are single up to their 30's...
By the way - if the system tells you that you have to wait 5 minutes in between posts, it means that it was posted successfully, even if it seems it didn't. That way you can avoid double posts. I'm not a mod, otherwise I'd delete one...
This is why I got out and why I quit the reserves..
IT IS NOT A LIFESTYLE; IT IS A JOB!
If you take it personally, sacrifice when you shouldn't, lose site of the important things then you will be frustrated. We all know that FITREPS, PCS Orders, Billets, are not necessarily reflective of the best qualified, hardest worker, smartest, but the ONE that knows and plays the best game. I would argue that unless you are self-employed, then any JOB that pays the bills is just that a JOB.
MILITARY:
Main Entry: 2
military Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural military also mil·i·tar·ies
Date: 1709
1: military persons; especially : army officers
2: armed forces
ARMED FORCES:
Main Entry: armed forces
Function: noun plural
Date: 1829
: the combined military, naval, and air forces of a nation —called also armed services
AIRLINE:
Main Entry: air·line
Pronunciation: \-ˌlīn\
Function: noun
Date: 1901
: an air transportation system including its equipment, routes, operating personnel, and management
The leadership (Navy and Airlines, for that matter) can do anything they want to try and sell a way to make you feel special and get more work for less; 'you are part of the Navy/USMC/FEDEX/DELTA/NWA/ANY EMPLOYER family and how it is a lifestyle, etc...' But I ain't buying that Snake Oil and neither is 'Websters'. How I live my life (family, work, hobbies combined) is a lifestyle... Not how or where I work.. That is a job!