O-4 List out (last year)

[BigRed389]

Ridiculous. Play that out a few more years, and now the pilot is handing out basketballs on shore duty and the SWO is deployed running a department, a spot-promote O4 on staff, in early command, etc.

Not really. The aviators handing out basketballs probably know they're not going to be putting on O-4. By contrast, an aviator trying to stay competitive is going to be flying and teaching at NSAWC, FRS, etc.

A SWO "handing out basketballs" on JO shore duty is still "due course" and on the last board could still realistically expect to put on O-4 if he/she doesn't fuck up on their DH tour(s) with a >90% chance.

Regardless, even if this is just an anomaly, it points out the potential hazards in trying to rank different URL communities together. A discrepancy of 90% vs 50% is ridiculous.

But more relevant: why can't you have an aviation DH screening board before the O-4 board? That way you'd have an "in house" selection of 1310/20's best as viewed inside the aviation bubble, then you can hit the O-4 board ensuring the board knows your DH selects should be push button O-4s. It's what 1110 does for O-5 and CDR Command boards.

 

[e6bflyer]

Ridiculous. Play that out a few more years, and now the pilot is handing out basketballs on shore duty and the SWO is deployed running a department, a spot-promote O4 on staff, in early command, etc.

I worked harder on my normal track shore duty than a lot of people do on sea duty. Our respective communities decide for us what the track to success is. If one follows that track and has the performance to match, then it should be safely assumed they will, at the very least, make the next rank.

Shoes do shoe stuff, pilots do pilot stuff. I think it can be argued that they both have a lot of responsibility at a young age and that continues to ramp up through their careers. There just isn't any comparing the two. In years past, this hasn't been a concern at the statutory board level. I don't know why it is now.

Take your toys and go back over to sailorbob. You aren't adding anything to this conversation but drama and negativity.

 

[azguy]

I think that it's impossible to compare the best between the two communities on an O-4 board; it's like trying to compare LeBron James to Tiger Woods. The career paths and the 'heavy lifting' jobs are entirely different for each community, and if time served as a DH and a recommendation for XO at sea was that damning for aviators who have no opportunity to serve as a DH by the time the board comes, then there needs to be a change.

Completely agree with your analogy. Certainly, there is no perfectly fair way to compare the records of 11XX LTs with 13XX LTs. But this has always been the case! Same goes for the point that aviators don't screen for DH before the O4 board- this is nothing new. So what has changed in the last year?

It's hard to make the case that the board wasn't properly briefed as to what records should look like when the board president was an NFO and there were undoubtedly many senior aviators sitting as board members.

 

[azguy]

But more relevant: why can't you have an aviation DH screening board before the O-4 board? That way you'd have an "in house" selection of 1310/20's best as viewed inside the aviation bubble, then you can hit the O-4 board ensuring the board knows your DH selects should be push button O-4s. It's what 1110 does for O-5 and CDR Command boards.

This is the obvious fix. Screen JOs for Department Head based on their operational, at-sea record, prior to the O4 look, like all other communities.

 

[azguy]

I worked harder on my normal track shore duty than a lot of people do on sea duty. Our respective communities decide for us what the track to success is. If one follows that track and has the performance to match, then it should be safely assumed they will, at the very least, make the next rank.

Shoes do shoe stuff, pilots do pilot stuff. I think it can be argued that they both have a lot of responsibility at a young age and that continues to ramp up through their careers. There just isn't any comparing the two. In years past, this hasn't been a concern at the statutory board level. I don't know why it is now.

Agreed.

Take your toys and go back over to sailorbob. You aren't adding anything to this conversation but drama and negativity.

If the webmaster wants me to leave, I will graciously abide. I think it's important for JOs to have these kinds of conversations. We all won't agree but I think this thread has been generally informative... Still waiting for a flag to put his .02 cents in though, that's generally the cool part of these boards.

 

[Recovering LSO]

This is the obvious fix. Screen JOs for Department Head based on their operational, at-sea record, prior to the O4 look, like all other communities.

I suspect an aviation DH and a shoe DH are two different animals. Maybe I'm wrong. Who knows? Maybe putting a mid-grade LT in charge of the maintenance department for a carrier based squadron is the answer. Is the question how to be more like a DDG or how to get the best and most qualified aviators into positions that demand experience and sound judgement.? I know the O-3 DH idea is a popular solution amongst the sailorbob peanut gallery.

I submit that if we wanted to have the performance of an average fleet CRUDES there are much easier ways to decrease our efficiency...

 

[ea6bflyr]

How about removing the Aviation DH screen board. It was self imposed....to "manage" an overage.

Then everyone can be a DH...just like the Marines and SWOs.

 

[azguy]

I suspect an aviation DH and a shoe DH are two different animals. Maybe I'm wrong. Who knows? Maybe putting a mid-grade LT in charge of the maintenance department for a carrier based squadron is the answer. Is the question how to be more like a DDG or how to get the best and most qualified aviators into positions that demand experience and sound judgement.? I know the O-3 DH idea is a popular solution amongst the sailorbob peanut gallery.

I submit that if we wanted to have the performance of an average fleet CRUDES there are much easier ways to decrease our efficiency...

We are doing something right apparently... And I said, screen them to DH, they don't have to take it immediately. Once those Prospective DHs are screened, at say, 7-8YCS, then groom them with the desirable shore and follow on jobs.

 

[nittany03]

I think there is some merit to stopping the clock on the promotion process until your butt hits a fleet seat, and then adjusting the career tracks of each designator to align as such. But that's not something that's going to happen overnight or without Congressional approval, and interleaving the careers of those on the "old" and "new" career tracks would be a bitch.

 

[Spekkio]

The simplest solution is what BigRed posted: Screen aviators DH and add that FITREP bullet to their profiles before the statutory board for O-4. Wouldn't require Congressional approval or a huge change of the way business is conducted. However, that would still screw some people over when you're trying to compare a borderline aviator to a borderline SWO or Sub guy and trying to choose who gets the nod while completely ignoring the actual manning needs of each community. It would result in fewer people screwed, but still screwed nonetheless.

Community/designator specific quotas would allow each community to promote its best and brightest for the number of spots they need. I'm not sure where Naval Officer career paths converge enough where you don't need such a distinction, but it's certainly not at the O-3 post DH (shipdrivers)/Post JO (aviators) level.

 

[bert]

...

But more relevant: why can't you have an aviation DH screening board before the O-4 board? That way you'd have an "in house" selection of 1310/20's best as viewed inside the aviation bubble, then you can hit the O-4 board ensuring the board knows your DH selects should be push button O-4s. It's what 1110 does for O-5 and CDR Command boards.

Because promotion decisions are supposed to be made by statutory boards, not administrative boards. Statutory boards are governed by federal law, and administrative boards are governed by Navy leadership (the same leadership a lot of you don't trust, I might add). Over the last 20 years I've seen the administrative boards get tightened up quite a bit, and I think they are a lot more fair and regulated than they used to be. But speaking at least for my old community, I think your proposed change would lead to even more of a self-fulfilling prophecy of the "golden path."

And speaking of the golden path, I think that is part of Naval Aviation's problem, not only for retention, but also for its tendency to produce group think, and in the case of the most recent boards, the fact that it makes a lot of our aviators just blend together in the tank.

 

[Maxillarious]

Seriously though it's summer nobody needs their lawn done? I need a jerb...the SWO's took my jerb

 

[webmaster]

I am a little incredulous that "suddenly" a YG of Naval Aviators are suddenly subpar performers when racked against the rest of the Navy. The numbers don't add up, and when you look back to when my peers and I made O4 you had guys NOT get promoted due to adverse FITREPS.

Az guy, feel free to keep posting. Personally I think your viewpoint is a little myopic, and I haven't really decided whether your just trying to stir the pot or not.

Regardless, I don't have a stake in this discussion, I voted with my feet a year and a half ago. And I hate to read here, and on other forums the angst and professional loss that this has caused some Naval Officers (fellow JOs to you az guy) that have had amazing careers. I personally wouldn't characterize their efforts as "handing out basketballs" ... Or "[not] doing something right apparently". A transition to a civilian career is hard enough when planned for, having to prepare and switch careers is not something I would wish on anyone. Luckily there are many well paying positions in the civilian work force that Naval Aviators are sought out for (not just the airlines).

This and the other DH thread have been excellent reads BTW, some great and well thought out suggestions.

 

[jmcquate]

You guys are missing the point. Just let the SWOs............hell everyone wear bags and all will be forgiven. That's what the Air Force did.

 

[Mumbles]

BLUF.... any SWO with a pulse will pick up O-4. How many jumped ship that could have been eligible for this board years ago...