O-4 List out (last year)

[azguy]

I dunno man I think it's more like 25% of people leaving with an EP....The big question is the disparity between us and the water wing guys- something is not translating: how is it that #1 squadron aviators are being looked over, but basically any SWO and submariner breathing and with a pulse got picked up?

Maybe I'm way off, but I specifically remember a thread on here a while ago re: administrative screening for aviators (either DH or CO, I forget). The stats showed that like the majority of guys had an EP coming into the board; I'll try to find it... At my current job, I'm ranked against aviators and I've noticed they put a lot of effort into reporting and transferring at opportune times to maxinize EPs amongst themselves. I can only speak for SWOs, but this mentality just doesn't exist, if you're not a top level guy, no one is going out of their way to hook you up with an EP.

Your bolded question cuts to the heart of it, and it's the question you should asking your community flags and PERS guys. Is it because all 11XX guys are already DHs? Was there a precept for this board saying to look at Masters and JPME (something 11XX have more time built in to their career path to complete prior to O4)? Either way, I agree with you that it's totally inequitable if there are aviators that have winning records who are being left on the table just because a mid-pack SWO is already in his DH ride.

 

[lowflier03]

To clarify, it's not an indictment on those Pilots/FOs who are getting out. It's just obvious that they probably aren't taking the hard jobs and doing whatever you guys are supposed to do to stay "due course."

This argument doesn't hold water in this case. As you can clearly see by reading any number of comments or actually talking to some of the pilots/NFO's who were passed over this time, plenty of them had the paper and intent to stay in, but were told "no thanks."

I'll still assert, short of a nefarious conspiracy theory going on here, this speaks to a failure by whoever briefed the board on what constitutes a successful 13xx record.

 

[Spekkio]

The amount of EPs and MPs a CO can give for any particular grade is dictated by instruction, so the theory of aviator COs giving out EPs like candy doesn't hold water.

The big question is the disparity between us and the water wing guys- something is not translating: how is it that #1 squadron aviators are being looked over, but basically any SWO and submariner breathing and with a pulse got picked up?

This. Is the board saying that having a "XO at sea" written into block 40 or 'command qualified' in the writeup is more important than an EP? Do the amount of months spent in an operational tour count? Does serving as a DH give someone 10,000 bonus points toward promotion? Because I guarantee there are some lukewarm sub DHs that have been selected for O-4, and their fitreps would have reflected that. So why was an all-star aviator passed over for a mediocre sub or SWO is the heart of the issue.

There was one selection in particular that I was very surprised to see -- still promoted after legal trouble and non-select DH.

To clarify, it's not an indictment on those Pilots/FOs who are getting out. It's just obvious that they probably aren't taking the hard jobs and doing whatever you guys are supposed to do to stay "due course."

This is a load of crap and you know it. With an 85% selection rate, I don't need to take any hard jobs to stay due course. I could do whatever the hell I want on shore duty (and did), and will probably be picked up for O-4 as long as I demonstrate the ability to spell my name correctly while signing maintenance records as a DH. I happen to also know plenty of SWOs who say the same thing -- JO shore duty is a freebie, plenty of time as a DH to show performance at sea before the O-4 board.

Screening for XO at sea is a different story...I don't personally feel this way, but there are plenty of 1120's who would think that screening XOSS or not screening XO and retiring as an O-4 on perpetual shore duty is a 'good deal.' Meanwhile, I'm wondering why someone was even promoted to O-4 if the community was going to put him into the reject pile for the next career milestone anyway.

 

[Maxillarious]

There was one selection in particular that I was very surprised to see -- still promoted after legal trouble and non-select DH.

I have never been more pissed off in all my life after reading this...I think I may have just blacked out with rage...

 

[azguy]

The amount of EPs and MPs a CO can give for any particular grade is dictated by instruction, so the theory of aviator COs giving out EPs like candy doesn't hold water.

It has to do with working w/ Placement to play with PRDs to maximize EPs due to the Jan cycle, detach of reporting senior, etc.

This is a load of crap and you know it. With an 85% selection rate, I don't need to take any hard jobs to stay due course. I could do whatever the hell I want on shore duty (and did), and will probably be picked up for O-4 as long as I demonstrate the ability to spell my name correctly while signing maintenance records as a DH. I happen to also know plenty of SWOs who say the same thing -- JO shore duty is a freebie, plenty of time as a DH to show performance at sea before the O-4 board.

You're clearly a younger YG. To stay due course and screen O4, you definitely have to get your ass to SOAC and a DH ride.

But this also gets to a deeper issue for the 13XX crowd. It seems from this thread that the road to O4 isn't very clear, at least not like it is for us. WTI, Shooter, FRS, Aide, what is the no-shit priority of the heavy lifting jobs? If a JO can't answer that question, there is something wrong, and it's probably the fault of community leadership.

 

[Spekkio]

You're clearly a younger YG. To stay due course and screen O4, you definitely have to get your ass to SOAC and a DH ride.

You're not understanding. I'm going to be ordered to SOAC. It's beyond my control. The part of my career that I had an inkling of control over -- my shore duty preferences -- have virtually no bearing on my selection rate for O-4 unless I worked on an Adm staff. I don't have to volunteer to be a prototype instructor or go on IA or anything else that is viewed as 'difficult' in my community to have a chance -- a chance, not a guarantee -- at selecting O-4 like you are advocating.

And I've been advised by more than 1 senior 1120 that if I don't get picked for Eng, the best way to make O-4 is to try to be a Weps, the easiest DH billet. Why? Because the majority of Weps' are window-lickers and it's the easiest way to break out. Not that it matters anyway with an 80-85% selection rate that's been that way for quite some time.

You're telling a bunch of aviators that they have to raise their hands for some absurd assignment and even then they might not be selected. Meanwhile, you and I just have to coast on our normal career paths to virtually guarantee selection to O-4.

 

[wlawr005]

It has to do with working w/ Placement to play with PRDs to maximize EPs due to the Jan cycle, detach of reporting senior, etc.



You're clearly a younger YG. To stay due course and screen O4, you definitely have to get your ass to SOAC and a DH ride.

But this also gets to a deeper issue for the 13XX crowd. It seems from this thread that the road to O4 isn't very clear, at least not like it is for us. WTI, Shooter, FRS, Aide, what is the no-shit priority of the heavy lifting jobs? If a JO can't answer that question, there is something wrong, and it's probably the fault of community leadership.

I think what you're missing is that aviation JOs are fully aware of the priority jobs, are doing them, excelling at them, and still getting passed over. It's not a question of what wickets to hurdle...the problem is the guys who are excelling in these positions are getting passed over.

It's got nothing to do with EP management or whatever crap you're trying to sell and everything to do with the stat board promoting everything with a heartbeat...except aviators apparently.

 

[Recovering LSO]

To clarify, it's not an indictment on those Pilots/FOs who are getting out. It's just obvious that they probably aren't taking the hard jobs and doing whatever you guys are supposed to do to stay "due course."

Again, false.

You continue to talk out of your ass while offering little in the way of constructive discourse.

I'd be more than happy to try and explain your community to you, but I'm afraid I just don't have the credibility to do so....

You cannot spin this into an acceptable story. The Navy screwed this away. Badly.

 

[webmaster]

To clarify, it's not an indictment on those Pilots/FOs who are getting out. It's just obvious that they probably aren't taking the hard jobs and doing whatever you guys are supposed to do to stay "due course."

What crack are you smoking? A general indictment that Naval Aviators aren't doing the hard jobs?!? I've seen all three of the communities and each have their unique demands and benefits for commissioned officers. But you have a pretty skewed perspective to make that kind of blind statement.

 

[BigRed389]

It has to do with working w/ Placement to play with PRDs to maximize EPs due to the Jan cycle, detach of reporting senior, etc.



You're clearly a younger YG. To stay due course and screen O4, you definitely have to get your ass to SOAC and a DH ride.

But this also gets to a deeper issue for the 13XX crowd. It seems from this thread that the road to O4 isn't very clear, at least not like it is for us. WTI, Shooter, FRS, Aide, what is the no-shit priority of the heavy lifting jobs? If a JO can't answer that question, there is something wrong, and it's probably the fault of community leadership.

Nope, doesn't sound right. Different aviation communities may have some different heavy lifting jobs, but their JOs seem to know pretty clearly what they are.

Let me ask you this...what's a heavy lifting SWO job? ATG? SWOS? PEP (nope)? NPS (NOB FITREPs-throw a BS flag on that)? Why is it that only the good deal tours, which can have nothing to do with the SWO community or the Navy, require committing to DH? Last time I saw 1110 O-4 selection rates this high, guys that did nothing operationally relevant and were subpar DHs were getting picked up.

 

[Maxillarious]

It's getting a little Blue-on-Blue in here. Hold your fire.

 

[BackOrdered]

It's getting a little Blue-on-Blue in here. Hold your fire.

True, but I can see where the Aviators are getting irritated. The "golden path" is VERY apparent to every community, to the point that if you are ignorant of it by board time, you probably shouldn't promote anyhow. If you follow it to the T and fail to select for O-4, you'd be pissed.

 

[azguy]

What crack are you smoking? A general indictment that Naval Aviators aren't doing the hard jobs?!? I've seen all three of the communities and each have their unique demands and benefits for commissioned officers. But you have a pretty skewed perspective to make that kind of blind statement.

You're totally missing what I'm saying. One of us isn't breaking crpyto here, and it's probably me. To the quoted point, there are plenty of guys- of all designators- that want to get out, aren't worried about O4 selection, and as a result take less competitive jobs that may help them transition to the civ world. For 11XX, that happens at the 4-6 year mark, they leave, and are out of the pool by the O4 look. For 13XX, those guys are still part of the pool, which would naturally result in lower selection rates, but let me be clear, that doesn't account for the whole problem here.

Now as for all of the guys mentioned by many on here, the guys who worked their tails off, took the hard jobs, went to sea, and got good paper -- yes, something is seriously wrong. Speikko's anecdote isn't an isolated incident. I know of a guy who was fired as a DH - not "fired" like transferred early, but DFC'd with a nasty FITREP; that tool just screened on his second look this board. That makes me mad as hell and indicates that there is something seriously wrong here.

I have postulated as to what could be wrong with the statutory boards, you can feel free to agree or disagree with me. After hearing feedback today, I'd guess I was off the mark on a few things, but I stand by a few theories as well. All that aside, this is something all of you should be pinging your COs, Major Commanders, PERS, and community flags on until you get straight answers.

 

[Maxillarious]

True, but I can see where the Aviators are getting irritated. The "golden path" is VERY apparent to every community, to the point that if you are ignorant of it by board time, you probably shouldn't promote anyhow. If you follow it to the T and fail to select for O-4, you'd be pissed.

Oh believe me, I'm pissed. I passed up all the good deals for the golden path and in the end, my "great reward" is that by this time next year, it looks like I'll be standing outside a Home Depot holding a sign that says "TENGO BRAZOS FUERTES!"

I'm just saying let's not get at one anothers throats...wanna be angry?- then let's put together a road trip to crush a case of Bud and toss some bricks through Millington's windows.

 

[robav8r]

If nothing else, this thread (and the FY-15 ADHSB) should serve as some really, really good professional military education for all of you just starting out in this business. If you are waiting for the O4 board to start paying attention to all the ins & outs of FITREP's, lineal numbers, screen/year groups, etc, it's WAY too late. I wonder how many first tour aviators can have an informed, coherent conversation with their leadership about all of these things during mid-term counseling or FITREP debriefs. Get a handle on it NOW . . .