First of Navy's new CWO Aviators pin on their wings!

[BourneID]

Weren't those guys (AVOPS CWO) kind of a different animal? They were going through the VTs same time as I was (2001-2) and the gouge was that they were senior AWs that the P-3 community wanted to keep flying.

Correct, the party line given to them, was they would continue to fill NFO billets, whether it be at the VT's, or VP-30. A some did, some didn't, some lateral transitioned to URL. From what I hear, they weren't treated so great, because lets be honest outside of the Army how many CWO aviators did you see until now?

 

[Hozer]

Weren't those guys (AVOPS CWO) kind of a different animal? They were going through the VTs same time as I was (2001-2) and the gouge was that they were senior AWs that the P-3 community wanted to keep flying.

One of them retired on Dec 7 out of Wing 11 (VP). Another one is still around here at the MOCC. IMO they got hung out to dry. Some did okay, but CO's didn't know what to do with them (see previous CWO/LDO thread).

 

[BourneID]

One of them retired on Dec 7 out of Wing 11 (VP). Another one is still around here at the MOCC. IMO they got hung out to dry. Some did okay, but CO's didn't know what to do with them (see previous CWO/LDO thread).

Hozer, I did a quick search, didn't know which thread you were talking about, do you have a link?

 

[Ken_gone_flying]

What sense would it make to keep them from getting these quals, like Fester said

I didn't imply that it wouldn't make sense, just asking if anyone knew. Afterall, the navy doesn't always seem to make sense, does it?

 

[Uncle Fester]

Afterall, the navy doesn't always seem to make sense, does it?

Shhhhhhh!!!!!! You'll scare off all the high school kids! :icon_smil

The "skippers didn't know what to do with them" thing makes sense. The Navy doesn't know how to do anything without Instruction and Precedent. Hopefully, since the new FWO program is more high-viz, there will be more thought put into their detailing and career path. Warrants have had a fairly well-defined place in the Navy up 'til now - senior technical SMEs - and now we'll have CWOs showing up in the squadrons who may not have even come from air ratings, much less be an expert on their airplane. I can see this turning into a train wreck when the less-bright skippers and XOs (yes, they do exist, believe it or now) don't think this through and miss the Big Picture, that these Warrants are aviators, not AMDOs, and start trying to pigeonhole them in time-consuming maint jobs instead of getting them the flight time and quals they need. How it evolves from there, as they start returning to the Fleet for their 2nd+ sea tours, remains to be seen.

The FWOs I had coming through as students, I chose to think of just as I would an Ensign with prior-enlisted time.

 

[Ken_gone_flying]

Shhhhhhh!!!!!! You'll scare off all the high school kids! :icon_smil

Sorry

 

[Hozer]

Hozer, I did a quick search, didn't know which thread you were talking about, do you have a link?

To spare you Bourne, the jist was that the AW/LDO's were guys with 3-4000 hrs of flt time, had been TSC chiefs, shop chiefs, Ops LCPO's, so they "knew" everything. So, now you've got a nugget "JO" who still needs a ticket punch but is not nearly as experienced as your LDO. Consider that you've lost visible jobs with CMO.
What do you do as CO? Do you put your ringer in and take one of the ever shrinking silver bullet jobs away from the nuggets? Consider that most guys think the LDO's career mobility is still limited to maybe 0-5 (b/c of time in service).
Most have opted to protect the nuggets, which is fine, and the LDO just kind of hangs out doing the upgrader thing. The LDO detailer still details these guys like other Ops Tech LDO's...boat, MOCC, Wing....

Sorry to rehash old stuff, but I'm less than pleased too about how this worked out. I am biased too. I think it would've worked out in the "old days", but with VP dwindling away, there's too much pressure to find good breakout jobs for 60 freakin' officers.

 

[BourneID]

AW/LDO's were guys with 3-4000 hrs of flt time,........I'm less than pleased too about how this worked out. I am biased too. I think it would've worked out in the "old days", but with VP dwindling away, there's too much pressure to find good breakout jobs for 60 freakin' officers.

Well I had one of the Old CWO NFO's do my commissioning, and having been a VP AW, for a while now, I know what you mean, makes me want to lean more towards another platform, plus it brings a change of scenery, not just from the SS-1 seat to the cockpit, but also I wouldn't hae to walk through the same main cabin Door.

 

[squorch2]

I think it would've worked out in the "old days", but with VP dwindling away, there's too much pressure to find good breakout jobs for 60 freakin' officers.

It's pretty much the same in HSC (exp). 60+ pilots, 30+ LTs, 3 big ticket jobs.

 

[MasterBates]

HSL has similar numbers.

 

[Hozer]

HSL has similar numbers.

Yeah, I wish VP would det more like HSL, Det Ops, Det Mo, etc...lots more opportunity and leadership. Also, HSL has a "det culture" which understands by necessity the nuances of det operations.
That's why I plugged events like UNITAS, hell even augmenting CDOPS to get some experience away from mom and dad.
But with declining airframes, even if the funding was there, I doubt folks could pull off less visible dets to off-the-beaten path sites. And the limited opportunities have become correspondingly high-vis so every 0-4 and probably the XO tag along to "ensure" success.
I still think there's opportunity, JO's just have to be unconventional in their approach. Not to mention, willing to sacrifice a little more on an already saturated "home cycle".

 

[BourneID]

What about TACAMO?

 

[Uncle Fester]

Admiral Starling gave a brief at the NASO O'club about the Flying Warrant program, and it was kind of vague about where the Navy sees it going in the future.

"Blancing out" the Heavies/Helo communities is great and all, but I can think of a lot better reasons to have Flying Warrants. It's going to be years and years before there's enough of them around to really make a difference in the career prospects of URL aviators, and the Navy's not known for its patience with long-term-investment goals. I sorta got the impression that "better chance of making Skipper" was just how the program was sold.

Every community would benefit from having folks that are long-term, high-hour pilots and FOs, especially tailhookers. No time out of the cockpit at War College or Random Joint Staff, not worrying about punching of tickets or meeting of wickets, just fly your butt off and keep that expertise in the cockpit where it's needed.

I think the FWO program is a fantastic idea whose time is way overdue, but unless there's lots of high-level cheerleaders who keep an eye on it, I can see it getting half-assed and mismanaged to the point where all benefits are lost.

 

[fudog50]

Back in the "way old days" warrants were issued to the Warrant Officers and they weren't commissioned officers.

Nowadays we are all "commissioned officers", permanantly from day 1. (except I believe Army W-1's which are temporary commissions until W-2?)

The Navy doesn't have W-1's.

There is big controversy on the Warrant Officer flying program especially amongst us senior CWO's.

I realize there are too few at this point to make any real impact, but, most of them are going to fly props? P-3's?

So what are the new O1's-0-3's going to do in the new P-3 concept with Consolidated Maintenance Organization (CMO) and flying CWO's?

The idea is to get flying CWO's to snatch up all the flight hours and free up the JO's to do more time at thier desk jobs and perform more leadership?

Well guess what? With CMO the ground maintenance CWO's will be doing all the Div O jobs, so when will the new pilot JO get to lead anyone? And then they will go on to be a Skipper of a squadron with zero leadership?

Hey who is making all these plans anyway? It cracks me up.

I know what you are thinking that P-3's won't be around long enough to worry about any future CO's anyway, but this concept is being brought forth as the precursor as to how we do business with MMA.

Sorry for hijacking the post and going off on a tangent, but hope that helps!

 

[Lawman]

Back in the "way old days" warrants were issued to the Warrant Officers and they weren't commissioned officers.

Nowadays we are all "commissioned officers", permanantly from day 1. (except I believe Army W-1's which are temporary commissions until W-2?)

As it was explained to me, as a W-1 your commissioned by the Secretary of the Army. Only upon reaching CW-2 do you recieve a commission from the officer of the President.

So ends our history blurb.