Colombian Prostitutes - Good Times or Career Enders?

[Brett327]

I hear where you're going, but I don't think comparing the potential for collateral damage associated with legal alcohol consumption is on the same level as prostitution. I'm sure there are a lot of freelancing high class call girls in the developed world, and I agree that in those circumstances, it's a victimless crime. There is also a significant portion of the prostitution in lesser developed countries that is essentially non-consentual sex slavery where many of the participants are minors. I don't have any stats in front of me, but it wouldn't surprise me if it comprised the vast majority of prostitution world-wide. Now, if that is the case, it's kind of hard to draw any kind of moral equivalency between that and alcohol use.

 

[pilot_man]

Lets not look at the developing world, but at our own country. I'm pretty sure there isn't a whole lot of trafficking going on at the Bunny, Mustang, whatever ranch. So using the trafficking in persons excuse is just that, an excuse. I get the idea, I just think they are going about it in the wrong way. If you use the "bad apple" example for prostitution, that some prostitutes may be trafficked so it's all illegal, then do the same with alcohol. Not everyone goes out and commits sexual assault while drunk, or drinks and drives, but because a few do, then make it illegal for all.

 

[squorch2]

You'd be surprised as to how much human trafficking goes on in the US.

ETA: comparing sexual slavery to alcohol? niiiiiice

 

[Brett327]

Lets not look at the developing world, but at our own country. I'm pretty sure there isn't a whole lot of trafficking going on at the Bunny, Mustang, whatever ranch. So using the trafficking in persons excuse is just that, an excuse. I get the idea, I just think they are going about it in the wrong way. If you use the "bad apple" example for prostitution, that some prostitutes may be trafficked so it's all illegal, then do the same with alcohol. Not everyone goes out and commits sexual assault while drunk, or drinks and drives, but because a few do, then make it illegal for all.

Sorry man, but I'm just not buying it, and I doubt whether that line of reasoning would convince many people. As far as the DoD's policy, you can't really take the developing world out of the equasion, since that's where most of the port calls go down.

 

[villanelle]

Sure, the Bunny almost certainly doesn't have sex slaves, but you are deluding yourselves if you think even a majority of those girls are there because they have lots of other choices, and that there isn't a lot of sad shit that you are contributing to when you patronize even them, who are lucky as far as sex workers go. Believe it or not, the Julia Roberts happy hooker is not the standard. Sure, the Mustang's ladies are there by choice, but it's still a sad industry and supporting it absolutely has moral implication, which are what is being addressed by these kinds of policies.

There is a lot of gray area between pre-pubescent sex slaves and high class girls who are stoked to earn a living fucking the likes of many of you in this thread (smilies). Just because they aren't "trafficked" doesn't mean there aren't a lot of damn good reasons why it isn't really okay to fuck whores, and why the government should have a vested interest in preventing that, from disease prevention to just not wanting American servicemen and women to be part of something that is pretty damn sad in nearly all cases. If you think that those women (or "women") in Thailand are stoked to make a handful of bhat for the honor of pleasuring you, you are deluded. If you think they don't dislike their jobs any more than people who don't make their livings on their backs, then there probably is no reasoning with you, so disregard this post. If you think that nearly every single one of them wouldn't be doing something else is she thought she could, then you are being intellectually dishonest, at best. Prostitution is a sad fucking world, and contributing to that *is* something that U.S government should absolutely have a say in, especially when it comes to high profile representative of said government. Throwing some cash at a girl who doesn't think she has any other way to feed herself and her 3 kids, and who is quite likely badly mistreated by her "handler", and who is at huge risk of violence, and who likely ended up there as a result of some pretty sad situations, and, and, and... isn't okay.

If not wanting to contribute to a sad, demeaning, shady, violent industry makes me PC, then so be it.

Just because it used to be accepted and not it isn't doesn't mean it's just some PC agenda. Sometimes, mores and values change because we realize we can and should do better, not just because we value appearances over personal freedoms . Jefferson owned slaves so I guess that makes Lincoln (and Frederick Douglass) just the damned PC police, right? Wives and kids used to have the rights and status of chattle, so I guess saying you can't beat the ever loving shit out of them anymore is some BS PC agenda, yes?

Yup, the world has changed, and will continue to do so. And sometimes, that's a very good thing, even if people cling to the old ways.

 

[HAL Pilot]

Villanelle,

Obviously I'm one of the big defenders of these servicemen in Colombia. But I have news for you. Contrary to what many probably believe, I haven't been with a hooker since my young days in Westpac in the mid 1980s. While I have no problems with the morality of prostitution, I don't partake. Why? Well initially I was married and then I had a daughter. It's like abortion. While I think it is a woman's choice, after having my daughter I would not personally want to be a party to an abortion but I would never condemn those who have. I tell my daughter that sex is not something she should take casually so I don't either. If I went to a hooker and she somehow found out, I would be a hypocrite.

Legal prostitution is Nevada is highly controlled and involves both legal checks and regular medical checks. One of the pilot jobs I had when I first retired from the Navy involved flying a couple of charters a month taking Japanese businessmen to the ranches. While they "played", I spent hours drinking diet cokes and talking to the hookers. I can honestly say not one of them felt like they had to be there or that it was the only way they could make a living. Most were doing it because they liked the big bucks they were making. Some truly enjoyed it. None felt trapped.

When I fly to the Philippines with Hawaiian, I see my fellow pilots and the non-gay male FAs pick up women all the time at the bars. These girls typically have full time day jobs and pick up a foreigner once a week or so for extra cash - not to live, but to buy the real Coach purses, etc. vice the knock-offs. Their real jobs support them, their hooking gives them their designer crap. Again, they aren't coerced or forced to hook. Many are looking for the rich foreign husband who they think will give them a life of bon-bons and luxury. Some are college students who say that 3 or 4 nights of hooking a month pays their tuition, room and board and leaves them free to concentrate on school. How do I know this? Because these girls normally spend the entire layover with the guys. They eat with them, they go shopping with them and they go to the bars with them. We/they talk and they are very open about their lives. True there are many straight our whorehouses in the Philippines but no one I know goes to them for basically the reasons you stated in your post.

There is a different attitude about sex in most countries than we have in the U.S. and their laws and society reflect this.

If the U.S. government legalized prostitution and controlled it through strict minimum age requirements (like booze), licensing and mandatory health checks; then all the human-trafficking, disease and other problems you mentioned would go away. Go to Australia sometime. It's legal there and girls are in it because it pays well, not because they have to be.

It's a women's body and if she wants to have sex for money then it should be her choice (as long as she is not a minor and mentally competent).

If a man wants to go to a prostitute in a country where it is legal, than I have no problem with it. Up until a year ago, homosexuality was against the UCMJ and prosecuted - now it's not. Up until the mid 2005 when President Bush changed it, the UCMJ didn't care about prostitution - now it does. There is no way the flip-flop on these two items were not politically driven. Just like homosexuality, I bet if you polled the U.S. population on prostitution the majority would not care one way or the other. It's the indignant moral minority that yell and scream until the sensational story is picked up by the press and TV news - and now it is a public outrage and scandal. And the poor servicemen who have otherwise served honorable for years are sacrificed for the same behavior that many of their superiors displayed. And the Admirals/Generals are so worried about their next star or position of power they build the sacrificial alters.

This thing in Colombia was not a big deal but to appease the few, the loins will be fed.

Like politics and religion, everyone will never agree on if prostitution is right or wrong, or if these servicemen deserve their careers being trashed. I've said my piece (many times) so I'm done now. I won't convince those who disagree with me just like my mind won't be changed. But hey, that's why it's called an opinion.

 

[villanelle]

Thanks for that post. This is a really interesting discussion and I was hesitant to post, but I'm really glad I did.

If the U.S legalized prostitution, sure things would get somewhat better.

But in this larger discussion, we aren't really talking about the U.S., or at least not just the U.S. We are talking about Colombia (and Thailand, and Vietnam, etc.). We are talking about allowing service members to engage the services of prostitutes in places where--legalized or not--it's unlikely the industry is well regulated and every hooker is a well-treated, willing, non-minor participant.

In theory, I am actually in favor of legalized prostitution, because I do think it would make things much better for sex workers, whether they were they due to lack of choices or because they truly thought it was the right work choice for them (though I am skeptical that the latter is all that common, especially with the conditions as they are while the industry remains illegal). I do agree with "her body, her choice" (or his/his), but I think it's also a very utopian way of looking at things, because sex work (in the U.S., even if legal) is never going to be like waiting tables or working retail or being an office assistant. It just isn't. Maybe part of that stems from the U.S.'s prurient views about all things sexual, but whatever the cause, sex work will never be like Pretty Woman, especially not in the States. There will always be a stigma, and it will always attract women and men and boys and girls who have had rough lives and few opportunities.

I've been to Australia a couple times (though admitedly I've never engaged the services of a hooker there). I get that it ("it" being lots of things) is different there. But I don't believe that a prostitution industry will ever be like that in the U.S. for exactly the reasons you mention--the different attitudes about sex.

You mention the whorehouses in the Philippines that no one goes to because of the conditions. But the rules can't really be made to prevent people from going to those places and supporting that side of the industry, while allowing them to otherwise partake. If you allow service members to pay for play, some are going to end up (unwittingly or otherwise) using the services of the girls who are horribly mistreated. Or worse--the girls who are enslaved or underage. There's no way to allow use of only the good, safe whores while preventing patronizing sex workers who are being exploited and victimized in horrific ways. "UCMJ forbids you to go to any but the nicest of sex establishments."? It doesn't work. If you want to forbid people from going to "those bad places", the only way to effectively do that is to forbid all of it. I think you and I disagree on whether it is the role of the military to forbid that. I'd argue that it is, because it is in the in the best interest of the service member, the women, and the image of the United States military.

UCMJ forbids many things that are legal, both Stateside and OCONUS. Servicemembers can't use Spice, even though it is legal in the States. They can't cheat on their spouses, even though that is legal (for the most part). They can't stone a women, even if they are in a place where that is legal, or smoke pot in places that allow that. And they can't pay a hooker for sex in Colombia. Is there the same level of indignity at these other violations of personal freedom, when UCMJ contradicts the prevailing law of the land?

I'll definitely agree that way too much is being made of this situation. In this case, these weren't the underage, mistreated girls that have been part of my philosophical rantings. If these guys broke the rules, they should face the consequences. But it isn't-- or shouldn't be-- a scandal of front page proportions that some guys paid some willing girls for sex during their off time. Why anyone cares so much (says the girl who just typed a novel and half!) that these guys broke a rule is beyond me. Actually it isn't, really. It involves sex, and politics--at least tangentially-- and we Americans can't resist wagging our tongues and our fingers over that.

 

[pourts]

I'm no moralist, so the concept of prostitution doesn't bother me as long as the situation is completely consentual (I.E. no sex slavery or other associated violent crime). That said, it's pretty much always been illegal in this country and we all know that going in when we join the service, so we really don't have any ground to stand on by objecting to people being prosecuted for it.

That it has "pretty much" always been illegal in this country is a sweeping generalization and lacks nuance.

I sure hope these guys didn't do any sodomy either, because that's still in the UCMJ for now (though questionable since the 2003 Texas state law was struck down). If everything in the UCMJ is subject to prosecution, maybe a sodomy witch-hunt is in order. Sodomy has "pretty much always been illegal" according to me. This prostitution scandal could be a great oppurtunity to get rid of those in our midst with loose morals. (/sarcasm)

 

[pourts]

Words.

This is just moral pontification. Maybe we should make abortion illegal in the UCMJ because its morally wrong and the US government should not support it by paying for servicemembers' to have their fetuses murdered.

 

[pourts]

We are talking about allowing service members to engage the services of prostitutes in places where--legalized or not--it's unlikely the industry is well regulated and every hooker is a well-treated, willing, non-minor participant.

We should also make it illegal for servicemembers to drink local beer, because that isn't well regulated either. Think of all the diseases they get and money lost because they choose to eat the local food and drink. Oh, and think of the sweatshops making the beer.

 

[Brett327]

That it has "pretty much" always been illegal in this country is a sweeping generalization and lacks nuance.

I sure hope these guys didn't do any sodomy either, because that's still in the UCMJ for now (though questionable since the 2003 Texas state law was struck down). If everything in the UCMJ is subject to prosecution, maybe a sodomy witch-hunt is in order. Sodomy has "pretty much always been illegal" according to me. This prostitution scandal could be a great oppurtunity to get rid of those in our midst with loose morals. (/sarcasm)

Don't be a brick. It's certainly been illegal in all but a handful of states for all of our lifetimes and for most of the last 100 years. It's not something that has changed as a result of the so called PC revolution. That is the point, but you knew that, didn't you.

 

[bert]

...

This thing in Colombia was not a big deal but to appease the few, the loins will be fed.

...

First of all, whether HAL's autocorrect rules or he was trying to sneak one by, that's funny.

I don't think there is any way the people involved didn't know the rules, and didn't know that due to their positions they would be hammered if their actions were made public. That pretty much eliminates any sympathy from me.

 

[Recovering LSO]

http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/22/us/kentucky-nugent-canceled-concert/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

Ahhhh - the horrible PC revolution continues... What's the world coming to?

 

[Brett327]

Seems like there's room for honest philosophical differences about whether prostitution is innocuous fun or a scourge upon mankind. That aside, can we all agree that:

1. These guys knew the rules going in.
2. They knew that there was a high potential for an embarassing media shit-storm if they got caught.
3. Should have avoided the entire thing by being the model citizens they're expected to be when they represent the USG while abroad.

Are we asking too much here?

 

[MasterBates]

I've been shore patrol or senior shore patrol on 5 continents, some 1st world, some 3rd, and most in the middle. (UAE, Turkey, etc).

I've been in my fair share of whorehouses, and other places where prostituites congregate. I've talked to my fair share of them. Since I'm not sure what the statue of limitations is on it, I'm not commenting on if I ever used their services.

Dubai- Most of the Russian/Slavic/Euro hookers are there. A lot of them do it because they can pay for college complete with living expenses, buy a house, or start their own buisiness back home by hooking for 6 months there.

The ONLY place where I got even a tingle of a human trafficking vibe by observing and talking to the women has been in Africa, and nobody went near the hookers there for fear of AIDS.

Hammering people for shit you did as a JO = Hypocrite.
Hammering people for shit you did as a Senior O = Fucking Hypocrite

I've seen people, some of which now wear stars with women I knew to be hookers in port. I have no problem with it.

Stop being a bunch of puritannical uptight bitches and yesmen.

Go get laid. Pay for it if you must/want to.