Are individual awards getting watered down (ie a NAM for a Det)?

[helolumpy]

I agree with your assessment regarding Afghanistan's future, however the future of Afghanistan - even through the lens of GWOT - does not compare with the worldwide limbo seen during 1940s.....

I could see making the argument that the rise in militant-Islam as seen since 1979 in Iran and now manifesting itself elsewhere in governments like the Taliban (Libya and Egypt are also recent examples) may be viewed in much the same light as the Japanese invasion of China (and points south) in 1937. (These events caused the U.S. to embargo oil and scrap iron which lead to the Japanese escalation of the war by attacking Pearl Harbor.) There was not a direct threat to the United States by Japan invading China, but it may be viewed as the expansionist policies of a government that is not friendly to U.S. strategic interests.

So, while Afghanistan may not be a direct threat to the United States today, if you view it as the West's fight against radical-Islam, then you can take a view point similar to a Containment Strategy used by the United States following WW2. Neither Korea or Viet Nam were direct threats to the United States, but do we really want a government (or an ideology in the case of Afghanistan) to expand it's power-base?

If Afghanistan falls, then what? (If I knew the answer, I would be making big bucks at a think-tank and writing books, rather than posting here) If radical-Islam is allowed to grow, then it may bring a "world wide limbo" reminiscent of the late 1930's and 40's.

I realize this has nothing to do with awards, sorry for the threadjack!

 

[Pags]

There are some other issues to be considered.

1. While the individual engagements and local fire-fights (TICs) that are being supported are matters of life and death for those Soldiers and Marines involved - the national and strategic implications are not nearly what they were during the Pacific campaign. Quite literally, the future of the nation (and world) were at stake when gentlemen like Hawkins and McCambell were flying.

2. Many of these guys were not career (or even terribly experienced) aviators. Many of them were new to the gig and would soon be back to their real jobs (i.e., Ted Williams et all). We're not talking about an airwing of guys who had the benefit of "workups", extensive time underway during peacetime for the sake of proficiency. Many of these dudes finished flight school and found themselves in the South Pacific quickly afterward.

I intentionally use the word "many" and not "all" .

Don't you think it's kind of silly to argue that someone may be more deserving an award due to the geopolitical consequences of a war? If that were the case then we would never give medals to guys like Gary Gordon and Randy Shughart because they were only involved in a minor skirmish in eastern Africa. The scope of a conflict in no way diminishes heroic, valorous, or meritorious combat actions.

While some of the aviators in the early pacific war may have been green, by the end of the war the was an airing rotation/replacement system in place as shown in "Twilight Warriors". Even during the early parts of the war the squadrons were still led by experienced, albeit not combat experienced, aviators.

 

[Recovering LSO]

Don't you think it's kind of silly to argue .....

things like this....

I think it's funny to see the this talk of awards getting watered down when last week RLSO posted a logbook entry from the Turkey Shoot. The pilot, LTJG Arthur Hawkins received three navy crosses and three DFCs. David McCambell got a MoH, a navy cross, A silver star, a legion of merit with a combat V, and three DFCs. These guys were only in combat for at most a few years yet they accrued racks that would make jaws drop today. Yet we've been involved in two war over the past ten years and no one has accrued awards like that. Surely in the 10yrs of war there's enough heroism and bravery to at least match the four years of the pacific war, but you'd never know it.

Yes. Yes, I do

 

[Pags]

things like this....



Yes. Yes, I do

Yet we've still been doing it for a few posts.

 

[insanebikerboy]

....Whiny bitching....

 

[insanebikerboy]

Here's my beef, I put in a few of my aircrewmen for an individual action air medal for what we did on cruise against pirates (anyone remember the Quest, not to mention a few other things I can't mention), but they didn't get approved and yet guys doing circles at 30,000 feet came home with at least one, sometimes two or three, air medals. I don't get it.

 

[Recovering LSO]

Here's my beef, I put in a few of my aircrewmen for an individual action air medal for what we did on cruise against pirates (anyone remember the Quest, not to mention a few other things I can't mention), but they didn't get approved and yet guys doing circles at 30,000 feet came home with at least one, sometimes two or three, air medals. I don't get it.

Not defending the decision regarding your crewmen (I don't the details), but you make a BROAD oversimplified, dismissive generalization about the guys at 30,000'...

 

[phrogdriver]

Don't you think it's kind of silly to argue that someone may be more deserving an award due to the geopolitical consequences of a war? If that were the case then we would never give medals to guys like Gary Gordon and Randy Shughart because they were only involved in a minor skirmish in eastern Africa. The scope of a conflict in no way diminishes heroic, valorous, or meritorious combat actions.

While some of the aviators in the early pacific war may have been green, by the end of the war the was an airing rotation/replacement system in place as shown in "Twilight Warriors". Even during the early parts of the war the squadrons were still led by experienced, albeit not combat experienced, aviators.

You're definitely right about the significance of the war not having any relevance to the valor of the act.

However, anyone who honestly believes that the hazard level of aviation in today's conflict is even close to that during most of WWII is crazy. Now, was their award system skewed somehow as well, just in a different way? Perhaps.

We may have our scary moments today, but I doubt many here have gone out flying legitimately thinking that their chances of coming back were maybe 50/50.

Did someone earlier actually contend that NATOPS and NVGs have made things worse?

 

[Recovering LSO]

this...

However, anyone who honestly believes that the hazard level of aviation in today's conflict is even close to that during most of WWII is crazy. Now, was their award system skewed somehow as well, just in a different way? Perhaps.

We may have our scary moments today, but I doubt many here have gone out flying legitimately thinking that their chances of coming back were maybe 50/50.

Did someone earlier actually contend that NATOPS and NVGs have made things worse?

Some things to think about. There was no NATOPs, No night carrier landings, No NVDs, No blowing sandstorms, No credible RPG or IR MANPAD threat, No 24/7 Media coverage, No restrictive ROE, No MOUT environment and if there was - leveling the city was a-ok back then. Not to diminish their achievements because what those aviators did was absolutely amazing but we're talking apples to oranges operating environment.

I honestly disagree with your assessment. If Wanat did not get those Apaches overhead and more soldiers died as a result - A political shit storm would have ensued about the future of Afghanistan. There are many instances where air support in all forms could have resulted in a different strategic outcome.

 

[CommodoreMid]

View attachment 11064

To this day this meme still amuses me by the fact the dude looks EXACTLY like my OPS LPO.

 

[Catmando]

Just like the air medal.....

...... The pilot, LTJG Arthur Hawkins received three navy crosses and three DFCs. David McCambell got a MoH, a navy cross, A silver star, a legion of merit with a combat V, and three DFCs. These guys were only in combat for at most a few years yet they accrued racks that would make jaws drop today.

Yet we've been involved in two war over the past ten years and no one has accrued awards like that. Surely in the 10yrs of war there's enough heroism and bravery to at least match the four years of the pacific war, but you'd never know it.

Medals are never dependant (except for the Air Force) by time or years in combat.

The only thing set in my day, downing a MiG equaled a Silver Star. I don't think over the past "two wars over two years," hardly anyone has had even a remote opportunity of such a Silver Star.

In my day you really had to do something really special for even a middle of the road medal. Hitting the most heavily defended target since WW-II and succeeding was not enough for a medal. More was needed.

I flew 197 combat missions, including many downtown in some of the heaviest stuff of the Vietnam War during Linebacker I and II. But I do not have a DFC. I don't even an NAM. (I do have 11 Air Medals via 'points' and sadly, only one Strike Air Medal, along with 5 NCM's with the "V". )

Medals were not awarded to us unless we had blistering enemy fire, and were in the lead rather than wingman. Plus, we had to do something special. Make it count. Otherwise our $60 combat pay was enough. I don't think, despite the valor and performance of many in the past 10 years, anyone ever had such an opportunity to win such awards.

And my huge medal opportunity (despite my lack, thereof) pales in comparison to those in WW-II, no matter how long or short our time in combat was. I think they really earned theirs.

 

[insanebikerboy]

Not defending the decision regarding your crewmen (I don't the details), but you make a BROAD oversimplified, dismissive generalization about the guys at 30,000'...

Not when you consider the threat level between the two. I'll be the first to admit that I am biased but I have a difficult time accepting that the threat level of an E-2 cruising along in a racetrack pattern on the Boulevard is exposed to the same risks as a helo at 150 feet getting rpg's and AK's shot at them, yet one qualifies and the other doesn't.

Hopefully I'm not about to start a penis measuring contest, but I'll stand by my assertion.

 

[Catmando]

Just for reference, below are a few of my awards – one my only Air Medal – my highest award - the others NCMs.

Within our airwing one could fly several identical combat missions and only one maybe would cough up an NCM. The individual Air Medal I was awarded, ironically was not really earned for what I did.

But there were other missions I flew that were perhaps worthy of much higher awards – and I will forever be proud of - but I never was put in for, much less received a medal for.

Relax, have a brew, and don't worry about medals. Those who are important, know. Those who don't know, are not as important and just don't know. And that is OK.

Besides, the uniform, silver tongue, and my great looks – rather than chest candy - got me more women than I could ever handle. Although I did handled most of 'em.



PS: Again just for reference - I caught and killed - confirmed by msg traffic - 112 NVA regulars near the DMZ one day. Blew them to bits with FAC's control. But even though confirmed KBA, no medal was ever awarded. Why? I was not under fire, other than small arms.

 

[Hotdogs]

Did someone earlier actually contend that NATOPS and NVGs have made things worse?

Not exactly what I was getting at, because night fighting was really non-exsistent in WWII (Don't exactly count the P-61, as it was not in widespread use nor exactly effective) what I inferred was that with the technology of today there comes more inherent risk. NATOPS pisses me off so I threw it in there in a hateful rant. Stupid I know. That's what I get for shooting from the hip.

 

[flaps]

my dad and 2 uncles served in ww2 (pacific and europe) for a total of at least 8 years. uncle joe was a ranger with 2 ph's (his highest award). dad brought home 3 nazi bayonets. he never said how he got them but i doubt he bought them . i don't think there were 4 rows of ribbons among all three of them.

just lost a neighbor , jack sherwood at age 90. jack spent 19 days on iwo before getting zapped. didn't get out of the vets hosp till '47. his highest award was his ph. he told me how the marines would have to crap and piss in their trousers because it wasn't safe to take a dump. hard to complain about medals around guys like this.

just sayin'