Navy VS Air Force Helicopter Pilot

[SlickAg]

Piggybacking on @HAL Pilot ’s post: my Navy background is E-2s and T-45s, currently 737s in the 121 world.

I think overall the Navy handles EPs incorrectly. WAY too many memory items and not enough focus on airmanship.

The FAA’s new emphasis on Quick Reaction Checklists is another step in the right direction. I think the Navy would be wise to start moving in this direction, but I doubt they will.

 

[A Day In The Life]

One of the good things the F-35 JTD (NATOPS equivalent) has done is cut out some of the pointless limits to memorize. There is no memorizing N1, N2, Oil Px, etc. As long as nothing is red, everything is copacetic.

 

[Python]

The F-35 was the first aircraft I flew where I didn’t have to learn any pressures or temperatures or RPMs, etc. It felt glorious.
If something is wrong, it’s not green. The airplane will tell me.

 

[Reg-A-Muffin0716]

Dude, if you want to fly helo's, go Coast Guard and never look back. Maybe the grass isn't greener in the AF, but based on conversations I've had with Coasties, the grass looks pretty green over there.

Uh, no thanks. I’m due to go to Newport in less than 3 months. Given the chance, I’d love to go for either Jets or the Seahawk.

 

[busdriver]

AF EP methodology works like this:
Maintain aircraft control. AKA fly the damn thing. In the case of a helo, maintain Nr, set single engine torque, etc. Maybe just land in the field in front of you, that's my favorite one.
Analyze the situation. AKA, what the fuck just happened?
Reference the checklist as time and conditions permit.

The reason the boldface list is short is because it's supposed to be the only checklists that you would need if time didn't permit pulling out the paper. Otherwise, no fast hands, you'll just end up pulling the wrong engine off or something equally stupid.

Low flight hours is a serious problem right now. In reality, improved aircraft availability is probably the best part of the new aircraft coming online.

 

[wlawr005]

Soooo........I think we've hit the AVIATE portion pretty hard from the AVIATE, NAVIGATE, COMMUNICATE mantra.

Fly the plane (helo). Keep it right side up and land it is the big key. The F18 community isn't big on systems knowledge but we all know how to deal with fires and OCF. It's all common sense really....helos are only different because you spend a lot of time slow and close to the ground. Seconds matter. To be honest, if you save the day, no one cares of you recited the checklist....but if you fuck it away people will question you. It's not something you should rely on in the cockpit as much as something that should prepare you to deal with particular failures in critical phases of flight.

The checklist is a great way to learn the "why" behind emergencies, but if you're using it when shit hits the fan then you probably should be a better pilot.

 

[HAL Pilot]

but if you're using it when shit hits the fan then you probably should be a better pilot.

When the shit hits the fan, the better pilots are using checklists, QRHs, etc. except for those very few circumstances where there isn’t time.

But that’s just my 14,000+ hours of pilot time and 4000+ hours of NFO time talking....

 

[wlawr005]

No, I agree that your knowledge of the checklists are exceptional, and that you execute the critical steps immediately. My point is those critical steps are usually common sense or very system specific. Otherwise, it's mostly your 14000 hours keeping the crew and passengers safe

 

[HAL Pilot]

More things are fucked up trying to do it by memory than by checklists. It’s been proven over and over. That’s why the FAA and commercial aviation have reduced memory items to the absolute minimum required and emphasized using checklists, QRHs, etc. in all but a few circumstances.

The only single pilot stuff I’ve ever done is light general aviation aircraft and I have no first hand knowledge of single pilot in a complex jet so I can’t speak to your type of flying. But I’ve been doing multi-piloted part 91,121, 125 and 135 flying for 20 years. I’ve seen this evolve from 30+ multi step memory procedures in the DC-10 to 7 line items in the A330. I’ve seen how much better and easier things are handled in both the plane and in the sim now versus in the DC-10. I also know that modern single pilot business jets promote emergency checklist use by having automatic checklists pop up on their displays when things fail.

I’m not saying you shouldn’t have systems knowledge or prioritize a checklist over flying the plane. But you should not start pulling power levers or flipping switches without following the checklists, QRH, etc. whether they are paper or on you flight displays. Trying to do it by memory leads to unnecessary mistakes that may or may not be recoverable.

 

[DanMa1156]

Flight hours. For many reasons I will not get into the RQS pilots fly very little. Some of the copilots are flying 80 hours a year. Junior aircraft commanders around 100 hours a year. Instructors or senior flight leads 150 hours a year. There might be some outliers but this is what I have been seeing. There are many discussions on quality vs quantity of flight hours and does burning 50 hours in the starboard D make you a better pilot? Again a fun discussion but this past year was the least I have ever flown in my entire career and have greatly atrophied as a pilot (no simulators on station either).


Their "Starboard D", is playing xbox in their tent rather than burning circles in the sky flying.

The HSC West coast Weapons school had an RQS exchange pilot there and he echoed much of the same. I remember him saying "you guys bitch that you don't do your mission and all you do is starboard D, but I'd rather do than than the nearly 8:1 ratio I have of APU time on alert to actual flying."

 

[DanMa1156]

Dude, if you want to fly helo's, go Coast Guard and never look back. Maybe the grass isn't greener in the AF, but based on conversations I've had with Coasties, the grass looks pretty green over there.

The fact that they barely promote their own (think helo promotions have historically had a bad decade? Look at the CG) and then outside hire other services newly minted O-4s and O-3s to be their own O-2s that they think will actually stand a chance at promoting says something to me.

I think the flying could be awesome, but I'm not 100% sold on the USCG culture or opportunities.

 

[Mirage]

The fact that they barely promote their own (think helo promotions have historically had a bad decade? Look at the CG) and then outside hire other services newly minted O-4s and O-3s to be their own O-2s that they think will actually stand a chance at promoting says something to me.

I think the flying could be awesome, but I'm not 100% sold on the USCG culture or opportunities.

Yeah, I guess I'm biased there. The HSC golden path has never been my bag, so I'm looking at it from the perspective that at least the CG bubba's have a career path worth pursuing. And more importantly, if you get out before seeing yourself become the villain, at least you did some rewarding flying first rather than flying PG for 1000 hours.

To your point, the fact that outside O-4s are willing to join them as O-2s says something to me.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

More things are fucked up trying to do it by memory than by checklists. It’s been proven over and over. That’s why the FAA and commercial aviation have reduced memory items to the absolute minimum required and emphasized using checklists, QRHs, etc. in all but a few circumstances.

The only single pilot stuff I’ve ever done is light general aviation aircraft and I have no first hand knowledge of single pilot in a complex jet so I can’t speak to your type of flying. But I’ve been doing multi-piloted part 91,121, 125 and 135 flying for 20 years. I’ve seen this evolve from 30+ multi step memory procedures in the DC-10 to 7 line items in the A330. I’ve seen how much better and easier things are handled in both the plane and in the sim now versus in the DC-10. I also know that modern single pilot business jets promote emergency checklist use by having automatic checklists pop up on their displays when things fail.

I’m not saying you shouldn’t have systems knowledge or prioritize a checklist over flying the plane. But you should not start pulling power levers or flipping switches without following the checklists, QRH, etc. whether they are paper or on you flight displays. Trying to do it by memory leads to unnecessary mistakes that may or may not be recoverable.

I agree that naval aviation should move away from memory items to some degree. However there are a lot of platforms that inherently will need more memory items than others. In the harrier, there are some scenarios where you no shit need to do some stuff within seconds or you’ll be ejecting or already dead. Of course a single engine jet that spends some of its time hovering isn’t typical of most other aircraft.

 

[DanMa1156]

To your point, the fact that outside O-4s are willing to join them as O-2s says something to me.

Definitely. But I wonder how much of it has to do with "the Navy/USMC sucks," vs "the USCG rocks!"

It's different when you know when you join you'll be able to get to 20 because you're joining at 9 years. For my friends that were straight Coast Guardsmen/women get FOSx2 unwillingly when they were otherwise fully qualified made me have a bad taste in my mouth towards them. The fact that it was almost all of the ones I knew certainly made me biased. I am mostly playing the devil's advocate here, but those would be my concerns in addition to an aging fleet across all platforms - ships and helicopters.

 

[fc2spyguy]

Definitely. But I wonder how much of it has to do with "the Navy/USMC sucks," vs "the USCG rocks!"

It's different when you know when you join you'll be able to get to 20 because you're joining at 9 years. For my friends that were straight Coast Guardsmen/women get FOSx2 unwillingly when they were otherwise fully qualified made me have a bad taste in my mouth towards them. The fact that it was almost all of the ones I knew certainly made me biased. I am mostly playing the devil's advocate here, but those would be my concerns in addition to an aging fleet across all platforms - ships and helicopters.

Aging helicopters? The 65s yeah, my understanding was they’re updating every 60 to a -T.