Navy VS Air Force Helicopter Pilot

[HAL Pilot]

My counter argument would be that memorizing more EPs gives you better confidence to handle them in a real life situation and I think it enhances your ability to recognize what the EP actually is more quickly.

The FAA and civilian aircraft manufacturers have done many studies on emergency procedures. These studies find that pilots who try to handle emergencies using memorized procedures typically make many more mistakes than pilots that use emergency checklists and quick reference handbooks. Memorization leads to rushing which leads to mistakes. Mistakes lead to crashes. As a results, the FAA and civilian world has gone away from memorization and instead stresses a non-rushed use the checklist approach to the vast majority of emergencies and malfunctions.

We have 7 memory procedures in the A330 and 2 of them are O2 masks on during a rapid/explosive decompression or an electrical fire. We memorized 3 pitch/airspeed combos for takeoff airspeed failure, wind shear escape, ground proximity escape, V1 cut and brake failure on landing. That's it. Every other emergency there is time to go to the checklists/QRH.

I know helicopters are different beasts but as a generalization this should hold for them too.

 

[MGoBrew11]

The FAA and civilian aircraft manufacturers have done many studies on emergency procedures. These studies find that pilots who try to handle emergencies using memorized procedures typically make many more mistakes than pilots that use emergency checklists and quick reference handbooks. Memorization leads to rushing which leads to mistakes. Mistakes lead to crashes. As a results, the FAA and civilian world has gone away from memorization and instead stresses a non-rushed use the checklist approach to the vast majority of emergencies and malfunctions.

We have 7 memory procedures in the A330 and 2 of them are O2 masks on during a rapid/explosive decompression or an electrical fire. We memorized 3 pitch/airspeed combos for takeoff airspeed failure, wind shear escape, ground proximity escape, V1 cut and brake failure on landing. That's it. Every other emergency there is time to go to the checklists/QRH.

I know helicopters are different beasts but as a generalization this should hold for them too.

Yeah, all very good points, and I'm not arguing there isn't a lot of minutiae the -60 could do away with memory item wise. That goes for both limits and EPs.

I don't necessarily agree with @insanebikerboy and his outlook on some of these specific EPs but that's okay.

And if you don’t break out the PCL even during a memory EP you’re wrong 100%.

EDIT: sorry, last thought. A pilot from the crew I know that actually did go swimming in a helo told me that going through the Underwater Egress EP from NATOPS in their mind is what saved their life.

 

[Gatordev]

And if you don’t break out the PCL even during a memory EP you’re wrong 100%.

If you mean before you're on deck, then where is the eye roll emoticon?

IBB's point is sometimes you just have to do pilot stuff, and for helos, a large majority of the time that's keeping the rotors upright and keeping turns, then land (or do your best with what you got).

 

[MGoBrew11]

If you mean before you're on deck, then where is the eye roll emoticon?

IBB's point is sometimes you just have to do pilot stuff, and for helos, a large majority of the time that's keeping the rotors upright and keeping turns, then land (or do your best with what you got).

In pretty much every one of his posts he said you always have time to take out the checklist, so no, that’s not his point. But, whatever.

His point is to memorize fewer EPs. I would argue memorizing more allows to do more “pilot stuff”, less reading.

 

[AllYourBass]

In pretty much every one of his posts he said you always have time to take out the checklist, so no, that’s not his point. But, whatever.

His point is to memorize fewer EPs. I would argue memorizing more allows to do more “pilot stuff”, less reading.

Realistically, as a (still fairly junior pilot sitting on only a scrap over 1,000 total), I view the two EP methodologies as follows:

1. Learn more by rote. When an EP occurs, you address it automatically by muscle memory, then continue fighting it with the checklist when able.

2. Memorize less by rote. When an EP occurs, you do pilot stuff because your knowledge of aerodynamics/rotor RPM/etc. is enough to apply to any immediate-action emergency before the checklist comes out.

Having flown with enough very intelligent people who have surprised me (negatively) with in-the-moment decision-making that varied greatly from how it would have went in a whiteboard scenario -- and having been one of those people (maybe not the intelligent part previously referenced) who had to juggle one too many penguins on occasion to make a quick decision that adequately reflected my ability -- I'm all for as many muscle memory aids as we need to keep the aircraft and crew under control without sweating the ol' skullpiece too hard as we scramble for the checklist.

tl;dr If I could learn those EPs verbatim as an FRP, why not? Where could I have better spent that bandwidth? (And even if we found a productive replacement, the HAC process spoils the benefits with verbatim pub knowledge...)

 

[insanebikerboy]

Actually, Gator was correct.

Fly the helicopter. Transmissions and tail rotors are the only thing that can kill you in an instant. Everything else you have time to breathe and call for the checklist.

I’ll give an example flying out of Guam in 2013. Dash 1 lost a motor about 30 seconds after departure, and were over the jungle north of the runway. Full of gas, and it’s Guam, so hot and heavy. I was in Dash-2. Helo with a busted motor ended up coming back and landing, albeit very slowly as they milked it back to the runway.

Once everyone was back in ops and we debriefed, the story from dash-1 was the PAC was hawking Nr and the PNAC was calling his altitude while the crew chiefs called the turns. I was on the radio with tower declaring the emergency for dash-1. They never touched the checklist until on deck. No CMIs for engine shutdown, restart, emergency landing/ditching, nothing.

I have more examples like that.

The point of the story is there’s a blanket expectation/assumption that the pilot flying will be doing great and handling the helo fine and the PNAC can just knock out CMIs while the pilot handles the aircraft. In emergencies that deal with keeping the aircraft upright, that’s 100% not the case.

Like we learned in flight school; aviate, navigate, communicate. If you can’t aviate and keep the helo upright the CMIs don’t even matter. If you have the helo upright and stable then you’ve also given yourself time to break out the checklist.

 

[MGoBrew11]

And to my original point in this ridiculous argument, how does it hurt to have the CMIs we have? It orients the crew and if situation allows, take out the PCL. The whole point of CMIs is to emphasize the Aviate, Navigate, Communicate.

If you guys don’t like all our CMIs and they’re so ridiculous, route a NATOPS change request to get rid of them.

Yes, obviously there are emergencies when you don’t take out the PCL until on deck. I’ve been there. Everything is highly situationally dependent.

I’m not a 1st tour 2p, I hear what you guys are saying. I still maintain I’m okay with having the CMIs we have.

 

[Gatordev]

In pretty much every one of his posts he said you always have time to take out the checklist, so no, that’s not his point. But, whatever.

Whoops, you are correct. I meant Fc2Spy's post, or more specifically, how I understood it (and after rereading it, perhaps incorrectly). My point, there's times when worrying about a checklist, memorized or not, isn't the thing to be worrying about and you just need to do what's needed which is fly the plane to a safer place (most often meaning landing/ditching).

I actually agree with the mindset that there should be less CMIs for the -60 than what NATOPS has. The big 4 covered 90% of what was immediate. This was eventually turned into the Big 6, which I'd argue made the process a little more silly, but was an understandable compromise.

As I mentioned in another post, the problem comes in when "people" (community, leadership, NATOPS officers who are impressed with themselves, etc) start to pervert the process and start focusing on what's written versus the sound judgement process. There has to be a balance.

 

[insanebikerboy]

And to my original point in this ridiculous argument, how does it hurt to have the CMIs we have? It orients the crew and if situation allows, take out the PCL. The whole point of CMIs is to emphasize the Aviate, Navigate, Communicate.

If you guys don’t like all our CMIs and they’re so ridiculous, route a NATOPS change request to get rid of them.

Yes, obviously there are emergencies when you don’t take out the PCL until on deck. I’ve been there. Everything is highly situationally dependent.

I’m not a 1st tour 2p, I hear what you guys are saying. I still maintain I’m okay with having the CMIs we have.

It’s a function of what Hal was saying. Too much memorization and we don’t train it like we would actually execute it (another soap box I’ll avoid). HSC-3, and HS-10 back in the day, hammered it in the heads of the studs to get the checklist done without delay.

I’ve seen dudes with thousands of hours pull off the wrong PCL in the sim (high speed shaft failure, low sides, etc). I’ve seen dudes hit the fuel dump switch when they meant to hit the fuel boost switch and start dumping gas (dash 2 caught that one). I’ve had a guy try and pull my good pcl back on me when I actually had a compressor stall.

In all of those EPS, the helicopter was still safely flying. All of those EPS (as well as a lot more) don’t need to be CMIs.

 

[MGoBrew11]

If I could pick the CMI EP to get rid of first and foremost off the top of my head they would be engine failure in a hover - this is 100% instinct and no one has time to recite that stuff anyways. Exactly what you guys are talking about.

 

[HAL Pilot]

1. Learn more by rote. When an EP occurs, you address it automatically by muscle memory, then continue fighting it with the checklist when able.

This is exactly where people fuck up. In the heat of the moment they try doing it all by memory and they either don't remember every step or their memory is wrong. It's been proven over and over.

For example, in the 121 world if we have an engine fire or failure right at takeoff. Except for our pitch attitude (best one engine climb) we don't even address the problem until we are above 1000" AGL and cleaned up. At that point it is "what do we have?" We discuss it and then decide on the action. Very rarely is there anything that needs immediate action unless it is a controllability problem and even then....unless it's a runaway trim in a 737 or a MCAS engagement in a 737Max...it's more of a matter of airmanship than memory items.

Some of you probably still advocate memorizing things like pressures, quantities and rpms even though there is red, yellow and white markings on all the gauges showing these limitations.

 

[insanebikerboy]

For example, in the 121 world if we have an engine fire or failure right at takeoff. Except for our pitch attitude (best one engine climb) we don't even address the problem until we are above 1000" AGL and cleaned up. At that point it is "what do we have?" We discuss it and then decide on the action.

This sorta blew my mind when I first starting looking at emergencies in the -135. Sound logic though.

 

[Gatordev]

Some of you probably still advocate memorizing things like pressures, quantities and rpms even though there is red, yellow and white markings on all the gauges showing these limitations.

To be fair, some of them aren't correct on the Navy -60s. But we go round and round on this here at AW, and I agree, most of them are dumb to memorize and it's not something I have to worry about now with what I fly.

 

[Gatordev]

Slightly related, but not meant to be for or against either argument, just for perspective...

In my current job, the first time I saw an Engine Oil EP was 11 months after new hire. It was discussed in the classroom first and then we did a practice event (sim, which included a bunch of EPs). For some reason Airbus wants you to go to idle first and then see if the issue continues. Makes more sense to me to just kill the engine, but whatever.

Then the next day was my .297 IPC. The instructor had me hand-flying an ILS to mins and gave me an engine oil EP right before DH. I switched the engine to idle and then worried about the approach, as there was no time to break out any checklist. I broke out and then realized I was probably supposed to shut the engine down, but there was still a smidge of oil indicating and I was at 150', so why mess with anything since it was all working, so I ran it on to the runway and then worried about the issue on deck.

The instructor said he saw what I was doing and that I should have shut it down, but understood why I didn't given where I was on the approach and it was going to be safer to just do the running landing and figure it out on deck.

I appreciated his recognition that decision making isn't black and white, but that comes with experience. The issue with NATOPS, which is both a positive and negative, is that it is a minimum safety standard. Unfortunately sometimes things get written into that black and white perspective.

 

[Mirage]

Everyone,

I fully understand that there might be threads about this C&C already. I’m just asking this out of curiosity.

To any Helo drivers out there, can any of you please chime in and shed some light on differences (that is, apart from the already obvious, and barring Army and Marine types)?

Dude, if you want to fly helo's, go Coast Guard and never look back. Maybe the grass isn't greener in the AF, but based on conversations I've had with Coasties, the grass looks pretty green over there.