Because hovering/slow flight in a Harrier is just like flying a helo.
And yes, we sign for jets in the RAG (and the jet VTs for that matter).
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Time to train (civilians flying military jets and Harriers vs conventional aircraft)
- Thread starter BACONATOR
- Start date
Because hovering/slow flight in a Harrier is just like flying a helo.
And yes, we sign for jets in the RAG (and the jet VTs for that matter).
Harrier Dude
Living the dream
phrogpilot73
Well-Known Member
I'm guessing it is.I hope my sarcasm detector is broken again.
In my dumb helo guy mind, I envision helo hovering akin to hanging on to an I-beam Col Ripley style, and Harrier hovering like tip-toeing along the top of the same I-beam.
I think that a helo guy transitioning to a Harrier would be relatively easy for the hovering part (and if you disagree, I invite you to try and hover a TH-57B or CH-46E with AFCS off) - but that flying fast would be the harder part for us to grasp. I seem to remember a discussion about Harrier mishap rates that involved a huge spike after their first couple of years because they started transitioning helo guys, and they weren't crashing in a hover - but were suffering from CFIT because they weren't used to flying 4 bills. Of course, I could be mistaken in that last little nugget.
As for time to train leveling out because of signing for the bird - than for me the Phrog was more time to train than the Harrier. 25 months from completion of the RAG to my cherry HAC ride. Of course, that is longer than normal - but that's what happens when you're going through the HAC syllabus on a deployment (and throw in the relief of a CO).
Seriously? How did you do over four years as an H2P? (I suspect you mean 49 months from commissioning, right?)
phrogpilot73
Well-Known Member
Whoops. I meant 25 months. Not enough coffee this morning. Either that, or my mind is stuck in Reserve land where we somehow get paid for 4 days, when we're only there for 2.
The guys that hit the HAC syllabus before deployment were doing it in 18-20 months.
phrogpilot73
Well-Known Member
Depends really. A couple of guys made it in under 12 months because our CO's policy was strictly in line with the 3710 (500 hours). Our new CO dictated 500 hours in model before starting the HAC syllabus. I was proposed for the HAC syllabus - then our CO was relieved, and ended up being proposed again 6 months later.
So at first y'all needed 500hrs total to start the syllabus? How long/intense is the syllabus? 500hrs in model? That's crazy. But y'all do roughly 3 long cruises during ~48mo in a squadron, right? So you could still get 2yrs/1 cruise of HAC flying out of a 2yr H2P?
phrogpilot73
Well-Known Member
Went back and fixed it. I really suck today. I'm pre-occupied with trying to get all the ducks in a row for the upcoming drill weekend (aka getting an ID card again).That's alright, you must've been counting your TH-47B time in that 49 months.
Yeah, our old CO was a former TPS guy who believed that the sooner he got us signing for the birds, the better pilot we would be. I tend to agree with him, as I learned the most about the Phrog between HAC and Section Lead. Our new CO was terrified of a mishap. That's where the 500 in model came about. You're supposed to start the HAC syllabus before 650 or 700 hours total (I'm a little fuzzy about that number, it was in the T&R somewhere), and we were all pretty close to it.
The syllabus itself is relatively benign. If you're CONUS, it'll take you 2-3 weeks depending on A/C availability, WX, etc... It consists of a HAC Board, and 4 flights (Day/Night HAC review, and Day/Night HAC check). Since you have to do simulated emergencies, TERF, and the like - you have to be feet dry to do the flights. Then the Group/MEU CO is the one that can sign you off as HAC so you're also at the mercy of his schedule. So on my deployment, I did the HAC board underway, the reviews in Albania, the checks in Djibouti, and signed for the bird the first time in Liberia.
As for deployments, they're doing 3 deployments in 4 years - but the requirement is minimum of 3 years/2 deployments. You generally make HAC midway through (or at the end) of your first deployment, and then make 1-2 more deployments as a HAC.
phrogpilot73
Well-Known Member
Yeah, it'll be awesome - especially since I'm going May 1st. I plan on getting their the minute the GS's decide that they work. I hope to be done by lunchtime.
Some interesting differences between helo communities. Our old HAC PQS had 200 level signoffs (basically H2P level) and 300 level signoffs (basically HAC signoffs) plus maybe 15 or so 300 level flights (HAC syllabus). The squadron also had a short H2P flight syllabus. We were expected to start the PQS basically as soon as we got it upon checking in and it was expected that it would be complete before you got 500hrs. If we came back from cruise without the PQS complete, it made people go. "hmmmm," unless of course there was some reason you couldn't get that flight due to available assets, etc. Once we hit 500hrs, it was generally expected that we'd be ready for HAC. To make HAC we had to finish the PQS, have 500 hours, have an OIC recommendation, and pass a HAC check flight (has to be done on a mission flight), and then get the thumbs up from the HAC board. You don't go to the board without all the other stuff being done. If you pass the board, you walk down the hall and the CO signs your letter as you stand there.
In addition to the PQS, there was also an NSW or "tactics" syllabus for guys to do "tactical" stuff (NVD form, NSW support, HRS, etc). That syllabus has now been mated with the old PQS to produce the mutant offspring: the Seahawk Weapons and Tactics Program, or SWTP. Now there's Level II and Level III flights and signoffs, roughly equating to H2P and HAC and a very "robust" syllabus that begins with the basics of flying (VNAV, landing on the boat) and gets into tactics for copilots (intro to NVD form, HRS, Gun patterns, etc) for Level II and then the Level III flights are basically "mock HAC flights" in the tactical environment. It's further split into sea combat (doing this stuff over water; ie MIO) and Strike (overland, ie CSAR).
phrogpilot73
Well-Known Member
Very true about the interesting differences. In 46 and 53 land, you leave the RAG as an H2P, whereas you guys leave as PQM. Our T&R has 100-600 level training codes. 100 Level are "Core Skill Introduction" and are done at the RAG. 200 Level are "Core Skill Basic" and include FAM/INST, CAL, TERF, NVG-HLL, EXT, TACFORM, AG, and CQ. 300 Level are "Core Skill Advanced" and include CQ, AG, NVG-LLL, Ground Defensive Meaures/Electronic Warfare, Mountain Area Training, Fastrope/Rappel, EXT, and Low/Medium Threat. 400 Level are "Core Skill Plus" and include unaided CAL, High Threat, TERF EXT, NBC, RW/FW DM, SPIE, Helocast/Softduck, Paraops, and unaided CQ. 500 Level are Instructor codes, and 600 are Flight Leadership/Check flights.
You don't have to do all the flights in a phase to move on to the next one, so as a 2P your priority will be to get TERF, NVG-HLL and NVG-LLL done. Everything else falls into place as needed. I personally flew every 100, 200, and 300 level code. I probably flew 2/3 - 3/4 of the 400 level codes, I didn't get RW/FW DM, or Hoisting. I also got most of the 500 and 600 level codes (the only ones I didn't get were ANI/NI or AMC).
A 2P that's up for HAC will probably have flown all of the 200, some of the 300 and one or two of the 400 level.
You don't have to do all the flights in a phase to move on to the next one, so as a 2P your priority will be to get TERF, NVG-HLL and NVG-LLL done. Everything else falls into place as needed. I personally flew every 100, 200, and 300 level code. I probably flew 2/3 - 3/4 of the 400 level codes, I didn't get RW/FW DM, or Hoisting. I also got most of the 500 and 600 level codes (the only ones I didn't get were ANI/NI or AMC).
A 2P that's up for HAC will probably have flown all of the 200, some of the 300 and one or two of the 400 level.
Give them a call - you SHOULD be able to set up an appointment.