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Your chances are....(penalty box for those who can't help asking about their chances)

HuggyU2

Well-Known Member
None
Flash, thanks for the comments, and seeing this through my eyes.
Folks, I don't subscribe to much of this. I was asked to chime in on why I thought there were some cultural differences.
I'm not a fan of the F-22. Also, it's not a "national asset" in the sense that other systems are. But, it has soaked up a great deal of limited dollars,... dollars that could be used for a great deal of warfighting capabilities. Some might argue that those billions of dollars represent a "national asset".
I am a fan of some "national assets", like the U-2. I'll save about 10 paragraphs of commentary, but I'll certainly take a magnitude more risk to bring a U-2 back to the airpatch than I would for other aircraft. Losing a U-2 would be devasting to many capabilities,... capes that directly aid the Army and Marines on the ground. I'm not an "air-to-ground" pilot in the traditional sense of putting kinetic energy weapons into bodies/buildings/vehicles, but you can bet that the U-2 line pilot culture currently revolves around the warfighters on the ground. Ask the Marines infantrymen that have gotten capes brief at WTI in Yuma when we've been there. We are trying VERY hard to support those guys. But a community with less than 100 pilots, and very few staffers has a tough time cutting through the political minefields to change doctrine/policy/tactical employment. We've got a lot of guys trying very hard to allow us to do even more,... and we've been making progress in a USAF run by folks that don't understand ISR as well as they understand fighters and bombers.
I don't like a lot of this any more than you guys, so don't shoot the messenger. But, if two humvees collide, roll over, and kill 10 ground troops, the "fallout" will be minimal compared to what will happen if someone makes a "pilot error", and loses a B-2,... even if both pilots survive without a scratch. Like it or not, I imagine most of you will agree with that statement.
When typing late at night, it's easy to not be clear in my words, and to misrepresent my thoughts. And it's hard to go back and say "what I meant to say was...". But that's the reality of posting.
 

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
...... it's easy to not be clear in my words, and to misrepresent my thoughts. And it's hard to go back and say "what I meant to say was...". But that's the reality of posting.
Hyggy, don't sweat it -- same for HackerF15 (B)Eagle driver. This is the internet, and although we have a "special" website herein, it's still not the "real" world. :eek:

We enjoy having both of you on the forum and usually gain some insight that we would not have in your absence (hmmmm ... at first that wanted to spell-check as "abscess"). Most/all of the shit we give you AF weenies falls into the category of competitors for pride and professionalism ...... but at the end of the day; we'd go to the wall for you Air Force guys, as I am sure you would for us.

When has it ever been any different???

27687481jy7.jpg
 

Harrier Dude

Living the dream
Huggy/Hacker, I'll bust your balls at least once a day and twice on Sunday just for sport, but when it comes down to it, I hope you know that I, like most of the circus animals here, would gladly buy you a beer as a brother in arms.

Concur. Same here.:icon_mi_1
 

HackerF15E

Retired Strike Pig Driver
None
The air force is who put this horseshit in there to begin with. The Marine Corps has been doing CAS longer than the air force has been in existance and until CAS became "JCAS" this was never a requirement. Remember, "J-whatever" means "the way the air force does it".

Keep telling yourself that.

Risk Estimate Distances, which are the 0.1%PI numbers that define what "danger close" is, come from some manual called "H 61A1-3-9AVAIR OO-130ASR-9", which is a Navy or USMC publication.
 

HackerF15E

Retired Strike Pig Driver
None
We know that...but the minute you start questioning the AF's commitment to supporting guys on the ground, that's when I get really....REALLY....defensive. When you guys start implying that I care more about making sure I get the ground CC's initials than I do putting ordnance on target to save someone's life...that makes my blood boil.

You can make fun of my wife, but I won't stand for someone claiming that I wouldn't go to ANY length to help a ground pounder.
 

phrogpilot73

Well-Known Member
Keep telling yourself that.

Risk Estimate Distances, which are the 0.1%PI numbers that define what "danger close" is, come from some manual called "H 61A1-3-9AVAIR OO-130ASR-9", which is a Navy or USMC publication.
Actually, I'm pretty sure that's an Army pub. I don't think he was arguing the Risk Estimate Difference and what makes Danger Close. He's arguing that the requirement for ground commander's initials wasn't required by the Marine Corps back when there was no joint pub. I agree with him on that one, is the AF the ones that insisted it be put in? I don't know.

Like I said, I had my BC's initials memorized and would have whipped them out without consulting him had that time come. He actually told me that he'd kick the shit out of me if, in the heat of battle, I stopped to call him and see if it was OK. "Stinky, I trust you - just don't fuck it up." That's pretty much how he ended it.

Do I think the AF is less professional/less capable at CAS? Not so much. I would love to get together with your peers at Pope and Seymour Johnson and throw back a few beers. When the USMC threw me 1xF/A-18 section for a TACP shoot (WTF am I gonna do with that), I called up the F-15E and A-10 guys. Next thing you know, we have more CAS support than we know what to do with. Other than the slight lisp of a gay man, I never noticed much difference when controlling the AF guys vs. USMC/USN. On time, on target - I would trust that they would be reliable in combat too.

If I bust your balls, it's because I like you and respect you. If I don't like you, I just ignore you. Huggy and Hacker, if we ever got the chance I'd be more than happy to throw back some beers with you guys (but you'd have to wear your scarves!) :)
 

Harrier Dude

Living the dream
Actually, I'm pretty sure that's an Army pub. I don't think he was arguing the Risk Estimate Difference and what makes Danger Close. He's arguing that the requirement for ground commander's initials wasn't required by the Marine Corps back when there was no joint pub. I agree with him on that one, is the AF the ones that insisted it be put in? I don't know.

Exactly.

Like I said, I had my BC's initials memorized and would have whipped them out without consulting him had that time come. He actually told me that he'd kick the shit out of me if, in the heat of battle, I stopped to call him and see if it was OK. "Stinky, I trust you - just don't fuck it up." That's pretty much how he ended it.

You could also just use "CF" or "FU". How would anybody know if you were giving the right initials? The only time anybody would ever check is after an incident.

Look, I'm not questioning the loyalty or patriotism of air force pilots, certainly not Hacker/Huggy in particular. I'm talking about the culture of the air force that puts legality/administration over operations.
 

HueyCobra8151

Well-Known Member
pilot
Everyone loves to point out examples like that, but unless you can point to some real proof of that I am going to call BS. There are plenty of flaws with the USAF, along with all of the services (don't get me started on the Marines, or the Navy), but spreading rumors doesn't help anyone.

Didn't know I needed to reference my posts.

I got that anecdote from "Cobra II" page 263. They referenced it as coming from "Interviews, Colonel Terry Ferrell."
 

jooman360

New Member
being a pilot after becoming an officer

i would love to be a navy officer, but i would really really love to be a naval pilot. Is it possible to become a pilot after doing OCS or NROTC and becoming an officer and later become a pilot. I heard that the limitations like age are not as strict if your are already in the navy. Also do i have to have a technical degree to do 2 year NROTC
 
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