Your chances are....(penalty box for those who can't help asking about their chances)

[A4sForever]

JCAS pub.....I seem to remember that Danger Close requires the commanders' initials be passed to the attacking aircraft.....

Unless it's to prevent the bad guys from compromising the freq and calling in a strike on YOU ... that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard of in a gut's-ball tactical reaction scenario.

I mean ... does the ground unit need air support ASAP, or don't they? Unbelievable ... wow .... just unbelieveable.

 

[Flash]

This floored me...definitely illustrates the difference in mentality.

In the Marine Corps many people feel that the infantryman is the main effort -and everyone who isn't is support.

Maybe in the Cold War Era it was different, but it strikes me that nowadays the boots on the ground are the main effort (I think Dora Farms is a good example).

What I think Huggy was pointing out is that we have hundreds of people protecting strategic assets, and that has included Marines too. Why do you think there was a Marine detachment assigned to CV/CVN's up until the early 90's? Our leadership has determined that some strategic assets, like SSBN's, ICBM's, B-2's, CVN's and others are valuable enough to place hundreds of people in harms way to protect them. In a nuke war, the infantryman ain't going to matter much.

Another example of the difference: I read a story about an Army Cavalry Squadron near Faysailiyah which came under attack. The commander ordered a danger close CAS mission from A-10s. He said a few minutes later there was a knock at the door to his humvee...the AF FAC (or whatever the equivalent acronym is) had gotten out of his vehicle and ran under fire to the commanders vehicle in order to get his name, rank, and SSN so that if the cas mission went south they would know who to blame it on.

Maybe I am wrong, but I can't imagine something like that happening in the Corps.

Everyone loves to point out examples like that, but unless you can point to some real proof of that I am going to call BS. There are plenty of flaws with the USAF, along with all of the services (don't get me started on the Marines, or the Navy), but spreading rumors doesn't help anyone.

I would also agree that everywhere I have been leadership is pushed down to the lowest levels. The "tell them what to do, not how to do it" idea.

That is a great idea, and I am all for it in most cases. But I sure don't want an E-4 deciding on when and how to employ a $2 billion plane, a $5 billion (one of 5) satellite, a $10 billion ship or a nuke. Things that Marines generally don't deal with, and part of the advantage of being the cheapest service.

 

[HAL Pilot]

The Navy has the same mentality in many ways. Why do you think the DDGs and CGs are called missile sumps?

 

[Flash]

I read an intersting article a while back about "Brass Creep" in all the services. In WWII, the enlisted to officer ratio was 10:1. Now it's quite the opposite. The Marine Corps is the closest with 8.5:1, followed by the Navy with 5.5:1, then the Army with 5.1:1, and the AF brings up the rear with 4.0:1. So, it's understandable (especially when comparing the service I was in to the AF) that decisions must be made higher up the chain, simply because of the large number of officers in the service. Realisitically, I understand that there are more billets for the high-ranking brass for other services, so that's why the USMC is so much different than the others.

You have to take those numbers into a little bit more historical context. The forces in World War II were much more infantry heavy, necessitating many more junior enlisted personnel than what is required today. Just as you go back to Napoleon's time the ratio would even be higher, since the vast majority of guys were foot soldiers (with some cavalry, artillery and a few engineers in the mix) and they had camp followers do almost everything else.

We have much more of a need for technical experts today who can maintain and run equipment that is much more complex than what we employed back in WWII. This equipment allows us to do things with technology that required manpower back then. And that equipment requires a little bit more than a brand new E-2 to run and maintain it.

But there is some merit to your argument too, to have the same number of flag officers as we did at the end of the Cold War, with 40% less personnel, isn't quite right.

 

[HackerF15E]

Unless it's to prevent the bad guys from compromising the freq and calling in a strike on YOU ... that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard of in a gut's-ball tactical reaction scenario.

I mean ... does the ground unit need air support ASAP, or don't they? Unbelievable ... wow .... just unbelieveable.

This is only in a "danger close" scenario -- when the friendly ordnance will land inside the 0.1% PI criteria. For a 500-pounder that's about 300 meters and for the gun it's 125 meters.

Not unbelievable at all.

 

[HH-60H]

The Navy has the same mentality in many ways. Why do you think the DDGs and CGs are called missile sumps?

You are absolutely right. It's easy to forget that there are just as many lives on those ships as in an infantry company.

 

[Flash]

The Navy has the same mentality in many ways. Why do you think the DDGs and CGs are called missile sumps?

Exactly. And we aren't the only ones, the Royal Navy was much more willing to lose a couple of DDG's and supply ships (think HMS Sheffield and the Atlantic Conveyer to name a few) in the Falklands rather than their carriers.

 

[HackerF15E]

"GUNS KILL, comin' out your 6 on the starboard side" seemed to be a regularly heard call over the frequency and in the (B)Eagle drivers' headsets in Gramp's timeframe ... ... a.k.a. a preview of "real" fighter/attack ....

Preachin' to the choir. I'm a die-hard air-to-ground guy whose jet just happens to have a wicked air-to-air capability, too.

Hey...if the Lieutenants in my squadron can call ME an 'old man', then surely I can call you gramps!

 

[A4sForever]

Preachin' to the choir. I'm a die-hard air-to-ground guy whose jet just happens to have a wicked air-to-air capability, too.

Hey...if the Lieutenants in my squadron can call ME an 'old man', then surely I can call you gramps!

Best AF ACM fights I got were from retread Century-series guys riding their then new F-16 mounts. Not "pretty boys" w/ ascots, but good, basic sticks and they knew how to make that Lawn Dart sit up and talk.

Hey, Bruddah ... I'd rather be called "Gramps" than "that guy who croaked a few years ago ...." .... i.e., no problem-O.

But still ... check your "6" ...

 

[HackerF15E]

The commander ordered a danger close CAS mission from A-10s. He said a few minutes later there was a knock at the door to his humvee...the AF FAC (or whatever the equivalent acronym is) had gotten out of his vehicle and ran under fire to the commanders vehicle in order to get his name, rank, and SSN so that if the cas mission went south they would know who to blame it on.

1. This is not the USAF being a bunch of weenies...this is them following the JCAS 3-09.3 pub which requires Ground Commander's initials prior to "cleared hot" in a Danger Close scenario.

2. All that's required are the initials. The rest is hyperbole. The initials are the Ground Commander's acknowledgement that the blue ordnance could cause harm to friendly troops. It is meant as a check for the Ground Commander to determine if that is REALLY what he wants -- not as a means of blame transfer.

 

[A4sForever]

This is only in a "danger close" scenario -- For a 500-pounder that's about 300 meters --- Not unbelievable at all.

It's totally unbelievable -- guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one --- but especially unbelievable if you're the Grunt who needs it. I think it's a fucked up, bureaucratically inspired reg meant to cover asses. Formulated by REMF yes-men in air conditioned offices and/or yes-men grunts who "weren't there", but I'm probably all wrong and WAY, WAY OFF BASE ... it won't be the first time. :sleep_125

300 meters???

Is that anything like 300 yards???

No problem. If you can't put a Mk82 w/in 150 feet of a smoke marker, iron sight, and still keep from hitting the guy who popped it and is probably sitting on the other side of it, you probably should be thinking about getting out of the cockpit and consider sellin' shoes @ JC Penney's.

Good thing we couldn't figure meters back in the 'ol days ---

"Danger Close" ???

WTF is that??

:icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol:** I'M DANGER CLOSE **:icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol:

:icon_lol:

 

[squeeze]

I haven't read the JCAS pub recently, and I'm a little rusty - but I seem to remember that Danger Close requires the commanders' initials be passed to the attacking aircraft. So that piece is required regardless of service, although I don't know a Marine FAC out there that didn't have his BC's initials memorized...

I know this is doctrine and all, but it's stupid, IMO. What does verbalizing the initials accomplish? Nothing. It's a dumb CYA "buy the bomb" (who loves ya HD?) phrase that in practical application serves no purpose. So the FAC spits out a couple initials... there isn't an attack pilot around that a) knows the initials of the BN CO he's supporting most likely and thus b) isn't going to say "well, sorry, those aren't the initials on my pocket checklist of all theater BN COs (sarcasm), and thus, you get no bombs."

Stupid.

 

[Harrier Dude]

1. This is not the USAF being a bunch of weenies...this is them following the JCAS 3-09.3 pub which requires Ground Commander's initials prior to "cleared hot" in a Danger Close scenario.

The air force is who put this horseshit in there to begin with. The Marine Corps has been doing CAS longer than the air force has been in existance and until CAS became "JCAS" this was never a requirement. Remember, "J-whatever" means "the way the air force does it".

2. All that's required are the initials. The rest is hyperbole. The initials are the Ground Commander's acknowledgement that the blue ordnance could cause harm to friendly troops. It is meant as a check for the Ground Commander to determine if that is REALLY what he wants -- not as a means of blame transfer.

The ground commander owns ALL of the fires in his battlespace. He delegates release authority to his FACs/JTACs. "Blue ordnance" (and by that I acknowlege you meant source of fires and not inert) can always harm friendly troops if not employed correctly.

In short, the initials are stupid, ineffective and altogether CYA crap designed to sheild the pilot and the FAC/JTAC from blame.

 

[A4sForever]

The air force is who put this horseshit in there to begin with. The Marine Corps has been doing CAS longer than the air force .....until CAS became "JCAS" this was never a requirement. Remember, "J-whatever" means "the way the air force does it"......In short, the initials are stupid, ineffective and altogether CYA crap designed to sheild the pilot and the FAC/JTAC from blame.

Perfect rebuttal.

Signed/ DANGER CLOSE. :icon_lol::icon_lol:

 

[Nose]

All of these posts concerning initials or no initials just confirm the "corporate" vs. "do what it takes" mentalities of USAF vs. the Sea Services.

Huggy/Hacker, I'll bust your balls at least once a day and twice on Sunday just for sport, but when it comes down to it, I hope you know that I, like most of the circus animals here, would gladly buy you a beer as a brother in arms.

We do things differently, and we each have our own strengths. Any truely salty Navy/Marine Aviator will tell you that we can goon the simple stuff with the best of them. But we can also pull off the big win.

USAF is more locked on with rules and regs, but that doesn't make you less effective. Just more gay.