Wtf??

[BigWorm]

The field is also known as Zeller International by a few. Also, since a few are freaking out about this issue, in the past I've heard a few talk about a guy that inspects some sort of pipeline or power line with a Cessna that travels in a north-south direction by the base.

Seeing as we break slightly faster than 250 kias 200' above pattern altitude, I wouldn't go calling your congressman about how grossly unsafe it was for tower to let a Cessna fly 300' below pattern altitude. I’ve been in the GCA pattern before, where they talked our eyes onto a bug smasher.

If you want to talk about unsafe, or stupid, it’s the Cessnas that fly in a MOA with out talking to Center.

 

[Fly Navy]

If you want to talk about unsafe, or stupid, it’s the Cessnas that fly in a MOA with out talking to Center.

How many VFR Cessnas are you seeing at 10,000+ through the MOA? Serious question, I'm curious, cause I haven't been out there yet (hopefully Monday).

 

[BigWorm]

Can’t say for sure that it was a Cessna, but a few times center let us know a 1200 sq was transiting the area so we could avoid them. When your trying to do your first squirrel cage, it’ll piss you off pretty good.
Another time, they let us know he was northbound, 7-8k straight toward the restricted area. Real smart considering 4 jets dropping bombs between 1-8k at 450 kias.

 

[Fly Navy]

Can’t say for sure that it was a Cessna, but a few times center let us know a 1200 sq was transiting the area so we could avoid them. When your trying to do your first squirrel cage, it’ll piss you off pretty good.

Oh I'm sure, but nothing illegal about it. Just not the smartest thing in the world with a high concentration of training jets. That being said, I'm sure it'd piss me off too.

Another time, they let us know he was northbound, 7-8k straight toward the restricted area. Real smart considering 4 jets dropping bombs between 1-8k at 450 kias.

Yikes!

 

[The Gooch]

If I remember correctly, Dave and I were in a 4 ship weps hop when we had to hold (yes, just like we were in BI's all over again) so that a twin-engined Cessna could transit the restricted area before we could be cleared hot. Think a C-172 flying NE to SW at 2k directly over the pattern doesn't happen just because orange and white circus jets fly there? Trust me, we've seen some interesting examples of civlant running strikes into our airspace...just keep your head on a swivel and don't always expect the tower to hook you up with traffic calls.

 

[Brett327]

How many VFR Cessnas are you seeing at 10,000+ through the MOA? Serious question, I'm curious, cause I haven't been out there yet (hopefully Monday).

It's not the guy cruising at 10K that will get you, it's the one at 1-2K AGL that you hit when doing a pop on your low level through the MOA. I've had light civils split my section before on stuff like that and had to jink out of the way when doing a scram maneuver in a MOA.

Brett

 

[Fly Navy]

It's not the guy cruising at 10K that will get you, it's the one at 1-2K AGL that you hit when doing a pop on your low level through the MOA. I've had light civils split my section before on stuff like that and had to jink out of the way when doing a scram maneuver in a MOA.

Brett

Except the MOA floor is 8000.

I see what you're saying though. That'll wake you up!

 

[Do'em]

The cesna is inspecting the fuel pipeline and from what I've heard he's a lot more scarred of us then we are of him.

 

[Brett327]

Except the MOA floor is 8000.

I see what you're saying though. That'll wake you up!

Lots of the MOAs out west go down to the deck. Good times! :icon_smil

Brett

 

[wink]

Not only do lots of MOAs go down to the deck out west, but many of them are huge. Because of their size and locations you will get lots of VFR civ traffic through the MOAs. It is just too time consuming and expensive to fly around lots of them. While we are talking about VFR mil and civ traffic mix imagine this real life experience I had. Just west of the Los Angeles basin over the desert in the vicinity of Palm Springs and 29 Stumps I am flying a MD80 on decent for landing at LAX. ATC calls flight of two F-16s VFR at our 12 O'clock. We are decending they are climbing. We see one and call that traffic. ATC is not talking to the fighters but lets us continue the decent since we saw one of them. Just as the one we had eyes on passes us we see the other pass off our other side. We split their formation. They were VFR, We were an IFR airliner. They had one transponder secured for the section flight and ATC didn't "see" or know where the other fighter was. They assumed they were in a tight two ship, not a spread. We just happened to have an ATC facility supervisor on our jump seat. He saw it all and went ballistic. I do think some controlers and Air Farce pilots had their butts chewed.

 

[Mayday]

hey Mayday, where'd u get that avatar?

I visited the place and took the picture, back in the day...

 

[beau]

I still say it was illegal ....even if cleared into the airspace (which is doubtfull), a wingover at 300 feet is nutz...it wasent some gentle wingover as well. He reefed the SH#T out the airplane doing....that is why I though we was going to stall it and ride it in.

 

[A4sForever]

It's not the guy cruising at 10K that will get you, it's the one at 1-2K AGL that you hit when doing a pop on your low level through the MOA. I've had light civils split my section before on stuff like that and had to jink out of the way when doing a scram maneuver in a MOA.

Brett

Exactly ... twice I almost died when entering the field environs. Both occasions involved light civil traffic and neither time did ATC call traffic for me (I was being radar monitored on both). Once in Dallas and once at Whidbey. I missed them both by mere feet ... neither one ever saw me until it would have been too late for them to avoid. Keep your head on a swivel anytime below 10,000.

I do --- even in the 747, but a lot of guys I fly with don't ..... and good lookout doctrine has saved my butt and those of many passengers more than once in commercial aviation.

 

[wink]

I still say it was illegal ....

Didn't see the maneuver so can't tell you that you saw it wrong. But if he comes in to the airspace on a regular patrol, and is talking to the controlers, I expect they would either violate the guy or tell him to knock that sh!t off in their pattern if they thought it was illegal or dangerous. If he wasn't invited, getting the heck out of dodge by any means possible may have been the saner course of action. Anyone call the tower for the real story or are we going to keep guessing?

 

[Brett327]

I still say it was illegal ....even if cleared into the airspace (which is doubtfull), a wingover at 300 feet is nutz...it wasent some gentle wingover as well. He reefed the SH#T out the airplane doing....that is why I though we was going to stall it and ride it in.

Illegal just because it's not something you would be comfortable with? Ever seen a good crop duster work their magic? Pretty wild stuff and close to the ground, but they do it 40 times a day, every day - hardly illegal. Not trying to be an A-Hole here, but everyone seems to be freaking out over what seems like a somewhat regular and standard occurance.

Brett