Why USMC using obsolete M-16 in Iraq?

[ChuckMK23]

Either choice would be great 1911 or SIG. Of course it's the old "small bullet that goes fast vs. slow big bullet" debate. And pistols especially end up going the lowest common denominator - look at Glock's reign in law enforcement as an example.

The 1911 concept was designed in an era where people trained frequently with their weapons and understood their function and operation inside and out. John Browning himself thought that the grip safety alone was sufficient. And honestly if you follow rule 2 (keep your finger off thetrigger 'till your sights are on the target) that should be all one needed.

 

[A4sForever]

The 1911 was carried cocked and locked, round in the chamber, for almost a century.......

Slight course correction, Fly --- it wasn't carried cocked and locked in the military. Empty chamber, hammer down, 7 in the magazine --- only. No exceptions. I suppose there were some guys who did as you describe --- but it was not SOP or manual of arms ....

The civilian and law enforcement world is as you describe.

 

[Fly Navy]

Either choice would be great 1911 or SIG. Of course it's the old "small bullet that goes fast vs. slow big bullet" debate. And pistols especially end up going the lowest common denominator - look at Glock's reign in law enforcement as an example.

Also has to a factor that many police are morons when it comes to their weapons. I had a guy tell me his S&W pistol was a H&K... or so he "thought". Saw a video of a cop shooting her Beretta... laughed it off when it jammed horribly at the range because she didn't keep it cleaned. I have little faith in police when it comes to weapons and weapons knowledge. Always ask a lawyer about firearms laws. (Note: I'm biased... in MA the firearm laws changed so often and were so complicated, you sometimes couldn't keep up)

The 1911 concept was designed in an era where people trained frequently with their weapons and understood their function and operation inside and out. John Browning himself thought that the grip safety alone was sufficient. And honestly if you follow rule 2 (keep your finger off thetrigger 'till your sights are on the target) that should be all one needed.

Yup, the Army made Browning add the thumb safety.

 

[Fly Navy]

Slight course correction, Fly --- it wasn't carried cocked and locked in the military. Empty chamber, hammer down, 7 in the magazine --- only. No exceptions. I suppose there were some guys who did as you describe --- but it was not SOP or manual of arms ....

The civilian and law enforcement world is as you describe.

Oh ok, thanks for the correction. What about in combat? No way do I want a weapon that wasn't at the ready if I'm getting shot at.

 

[ChuckMK23]

I talked to a Kimber rep at a recent gun show - he stated that LAPD carries their Kimber 1911's in condition 1 (round in the chamber, hammer cocked, safety ON) as a matter of routine.

I think you'll find folks in combat now - the guys and gals out of the Green Zone walking and driving around all have a rouond in the chamber and safety off (M9 of course, first shot double action)

My issue 1911 (no M9's for the Nav in the 80's) was kept in my SV2, with 5 X 7 round mags in a MAF bag in my leg zipper pocket.

 

[Fly Navy]

I think you'll find folks in combat now - the guys and gals out of the Green Zone walking and driving around all have a rouond in the chamber and safety off (M9 of course, first shot double action)

So would I! Zero, absolutely zero need for external safety on a DA/SA with a heavy DA trigger. That and it's Iraq.

 

[A4sForever]

.... What about in combat? No way do I want a weapon that wasn't at the ready if I'm getting shot at.

Same, same ---- again, I'm sure some guys violated the rule. I didn't ---because if I ejected, I didn't want a live round in the chamber, pointed at my groin/legs, with the hammer resting on the firing pin, poised over a live round, etc., etc. Half-cocked was not the answer, either.

The 1911/1911A1 was capable of an AD if dropped on the hammer with a round chambered. I've also heard/read that a potential problem was the firing pin could "float/move" inside the FP spring with the design if subjected to extreme force or movement. Like dropping it ... or an ejection ???

Anyway --- I carried 7 in the mag --- chamber empty --- hammer down. I even kept an empty chamber in the .38 (flare rounds) for the same reason.

 

[Fly Navy]

Same, same ---- again, I'm sure some guys violated the rule. I didn't ---because if I ejected, I didn't want a live round in the chamber, pointed at my groin/legs, with the hammer resting on the firing pin, poised over a live round, etc., etc. Half-cocked was not the answer, either.

The 1911/1911A1 was capable of an AD if dropped on the hammer with a round chambered. I've also heard/read that a potential problem was the firing pin could "float/move" inside the FP spring with the design if subjected to extreme force or movement. Like dropping it ... or an ejection ???

Anyway --- I carried 7 in the mag --- chamber empty --- hammer down. I even kept an empty chamber in the .38 (flare rounds) for the same reason.

Oh this I understand. I wouldn't carry a round in the chamber if flying either. The forces of ejection are just too much. I just meant for your typical grunt. I think in close combat, I'd want my weapon at the ready.

 

[ChuckMK23]

Temporary thread jack

What the hell is the purpose for the half-cock position on 1911 pistols - all I've been trained/told is never use it - but why the hell is it there in the first place?

 

[A4sForever]

Temporary thread jack

What the hell is the purpose for the half-cock position on 1911 pistols - all I've been trained/told is never use it - but why the hell is it there in the first place?

There is a possibility that if the gun was actually in a "false half-cock" condition you can still get an AD. It has been shown in testing -- 1911's and others --- that a hammer falling from half-cock will set off a live round about 40% of the time. Modern pistols have added a "firing pin block" system into the design. An AD can ruin your whole day ....

 

[Fly Navy]

Interesting tidbit about "half-cock". Take a look at a SIG when it is de-cocked. The hammer does not rest on the firing pin. Just an added safety measure. (for the unaware, it's impossible for a SIG to fire by slamming its hammer down. The trigger must be pulled.)

 

[Lawman]

Talked to some Israeli's about the way they carry, being that their country is pretty much a combat zone. Only Police Force Ive ever seen that actually carries with the chamber empty. They practice to draw and rack the slide in the same motion. Yes you lose that extra round of capacity, but hey some of us can shoot.

Also Glock will never be a sidearm of the US military. No external Hammer, no independent Safety those are two of the requirements the Military always throws out. And no amount of discounting the weapon or offering to send everybody to armorer school for free like they do with Police is going to make that stance change.

Id like to see the 226 in regular rotation even as a left handed shooter Id much rather use one of those then an M9, fired plenty and they just dont do it. Plus I think its about time we got some new guns, couple buddies of mine were both telling me about their "Smooth Bore" M9's at Basic.

 

[A4sForever]

Temporary thread jack What the hell is the purpose for the half-cock position on 1911 pistols

Sorry, Chuck --- I didn't answer your question ... from the manual:

1911/1911A1 HALF-COCKED POSITION:

​

​

of the hammer functions as an automatic safety position.
It will prevent the hammer from falling fully forward unintentionally.
Never attempt to fire the pistol from the half-cocked position.
To remove the hammer from the halfcocked position,
keep your finger off the trigger and out of the trigger
guard, then draw the hammer to the fully-cocked position.

From this position, the pistol may be fired or decocked. The
half-cocked position is not a manual safety. The hammer should
never be left in this position. Never carry the pistol in the halfcocked
position.
​

 

[squeeze]

ok, so it's an automatic safety position but the only way to get it to half cock is to pull it there, but from that position it can be fired or decoked, but it's also not a manual safety and the hammer should never be left in half-cock or carried there.

THAT MAKES NO F-ING SENSE.

/love the 1911, own one, still think browning was high when he added that feature

 

[Blutonski816]

ok, so it's an automatic safety position but the only way to get it to half cock is to pull it there, but from that position it can be fired or decoked, but it's also not a manual safety and the hammer should never be left in half-cock or carried there.

THAT MAKES NO F-ING SENSE.

/love the 1911, own one, still think browning was high when he added that feature

agreed